Should Oscar Pistorius be allowed to compete in the Olympics

[ninman]

Originally Posted by connico

lol...

One question. The blades, do they give him any additional advantage over all other runners? And the answer is no...

What we are discussing here is discrimination; and to question his legitimacy in being able to run in the olympics is just so wrong.

Next up, black athletes should not be allowed to run because they are so much faster, got something to with genetics.. idiots...

So we shouldn't have the paralympics then? Just let them all compete together? Makes sense. You can't have it both ways, either disabled compete in the paralympics, or they all compete in the normal olympics.

That's like saying not allowed Usain Bolt to run the 100, 200m in the paralympics is discrimination.

[connico]

Originally Posted by ninman

So we shouldn't have the paralympics then? Just let them all compete together? Makes sense. You can't have it both ways, either disabled compete in the paralympics, or they all compete in the normal olympics.

That's like saying not allowed Usain Bolt to run the 100, 200m in the paralympics is discrimination.

Is Usain Bolt disabled? lol No; paralympics are games for athletes that have disabilities.

The olympics are for all athletes; it doesnt exclude disabled people. If they can compete with medical aids that does not disadvantage fellow competitors its not a problem.

There are rules and guidelines; go read about them and stop discriminating others because of ignorance.

[Timbo's hopeless slice]

Yeah, Bolt isn't 'running in the same manner as other people', either, do we ban him too? (he takes significantly less strides over 200m than his competition, clearly an unfair advantage)

Your argument regarding physiology is ludicrous, by the way, Pistorios does have the same number of heads, legs and arms as everyone else, his legs just end at the knee.

As for the blades, do you think everyone should run in bare feet? or perhaps in some sort of 'control shoe' to take out the variables?

How are the blades different in their application (ie, allowing an athlete to run on the track) to a set of Nike spikes?

[jmverdugo]

Originally Posted by ninman

So we shouldn't have the paralympics then? Just let them all compete together? Makes sense. You can't have it both way[s, either disabled compete in the paralympics, or they all compete in the normal olympics.

That's like saying not allowed Usain Bolt to run the 100, 200m in the paralympics is discrimination.

It is not the same, and if you cannot see it then there is not point on discussing with you because you have reached your level of understanding ... there I said it...

[Benhur]

Woodrow, your arguments seem based exclusively on appeal to authority, and those arguments are never very convincing. In this case it amounts to saying: it’s okay he is allowed to run with those devices because the authorities in charge said it’s okay.

The initial decision not to let him run was reversed on appeal. In the reversal, they acknowledged that he does enjoy an advantage at full speed, as had been previously determined, but they thought that this advantage can be considered sufficiently offset by the disadvantage in the acceleration phase.

Doesn’t sound to me like very serious grounds for reversal, in part because of the impossibility of measuring the advantages relative to the disadvantages, but mainly because the rules are clear in this respect: No mechanical devices that provide an advantage are allowed. Period. The decision to allow it on the grounds that the advantage is offset during parts of the race is a joke. Your demand for proofs and demonstrations is unreasonable. The use of those devices clearly violates the basic rules of the game.

Also, the decision to let South Africa go to the final round of the 4x400 after their second man, Mogawane, fell down (supposedly obstructed) is a totally unprecedented, make-it-up-as-you-go-along outrage. The guy was next to last when he fell, but even if he had been first, there is no way you can do this. From now on, if you are not doing so good on the 4x400, just find a way to get yourself obstructed, fall down, and presto your team will be moved to the next round. I have to assume it was done only because Pistorious is in the team. Amazing stuff.

[ninman]

Originally Posted by Benhur

Woodrow, your arguments seem based exclusively on appeal to authority, and those arguments are never very convincing. In this case it amounts to saying: it’s okay he is allowed to run with those devices because the authorities in charge said it’s okay.

The initial decision not to let him run was reversed on appeal. In the reversal, they acknowledged that he does enjoy an advantage at full speed, as had been previously determined, but they thought that this advantage can be considered sufficiently offset by the disadvantage in the acceleration phase.

Doesn’t sound to me like very serious grounds for reversal, in part because of the impossibility of measuring the advantages relative to the disadvantages, but mainly because the rules are clear in this respect: No mechanical devices that provide an advantage are allowed. Period. The decision to allow it on the grounds that the advantage is offset during parts of the race is a joke. Your demand for proofs and demonstrations is unreasonable. The use of those devices clearly violates the basic rules of the game.

Also, the decision to let South Africa go to the final round of the 4x400 after their second man, Mogawane, fell down (supposedly obstructed) is a totally unprecedented, make-it-up-as-you-go-along outrage. The guy was next to last when he fell, but even if he had been first, there is no way you can do this. From now on, if you are not doing so good on the 4x400, just find a way to get yourself obstructed, fall down, and presto your team will be moved to the next round. I have to assume it was done only because Pistorious is in the team. Amazing stuff.

Exactly. The only possible way to measure any advantage or disadvantage would be to measure his time with legs, then measure his time without. It's a totally unmeasurable quantity. But like you said, that doesn't even matter, using those things in the ordinary olympics is against the rules.

[jmverdugo]

ok, this is going to be my last post for today because I am on my second Foster and my ability to type is going down by the sip ...

1. It is possible to measure EVERYTHING relating the blades and Pistorious running style, you can measure (and I mean with real sensors and monitoring systems) any type of advantage he may have, and they know what they have to change in the blade's design to make them perform within the limits of human capabilities, more over (and as I already wrote), the human body cannot tolerate something super human, Pistorious could not handle something that would give him extraordinary abilities because his body cannot handle the extraordinary stress.

2. Rules change all the time, that is how we evolve, the Olympic committee is smart enough to try new things, if you cannot see that then probably you have bigger problems ...

[ninman]

Originally Posted by jmverdugo

ok, this is going to be my last post for today because I am on my second Foster and my ability to type is going down by the sip ...

1. It is possible to measure EVERYTHING relating the blades and Pistorious running style, you can measure (and I mean with real sensors and monitoring systems) any type of advantage he may have, and they know what they have to change in the blade's design to make them perform within the limits of human capabilities, more over (and as I already wrote), the human body cannot tolerate something super human, Pistorious could not handle something that would give him extraordinary abilities because his body cannot handle the extraordinary stress.

2. Rules change all the time, that is how we evolve, the Olympic committee is smart enough to try new things, if you cannot see that then probably you have bigger problems ...

1. No it is not. They are not measuring how he specifically would run with normal legs, compared to artificial ones. Comparing him to how others run is flawed, because it's impossible to know how he would run if he had legs.

[Benhur]

From the wikipedia article (sorry if this has been pointed out before, I haven't read the entire thread)
In November 2007, Pistorius was invited to take part in a series of scientific tests at the Cologne Sports University under the guidance of Professor of Biomechanics Dr Peter Brüggemann in conjunction with Mr Elio Locatelli, who was responsible with the IAAF of all technical issues. After two days of tests Brüggemann reported on his findings on behalf of the IAAF. The report claimed that Pistorius's limbs used 25% less energy than runners with complete natural legs to run at the same speed, and that they led to less vertical motion combined with 30% less mechanical work for lifting the body.[34] In December, Brüggemann told Die Welt newspaper that Pistorius "has considerable advantages over athletes without prosthetic limbs who were tested by us. It was more than just a few percentage points. I did not expect it to be so clear.
[...]
Pistorius subsequently appealed against the adverse decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) in Lausanne, Switzerland, and appeared before the tribunal at the end of April 2008.[38] After a two-day hearing, on 16 May 2008 the Court of Arbitration for Sport upheld Pistorius's appeal and the IAAF council decision was revoked with immediate effect. The CAS panel unanimously determined that Dr. Brüggemann only tested Pistorius's biomechanics at full-speed when he was running in a straight line (unlike a real 400-metre race), that the report did not consider the disadvantages that Pistorius suffers at the start and acceleration phases of the race, and that overall there was no evidence that he had any net advantage over able-bodied athletes.

So the whole thing is based on the inability to measure the extent of the disadvantage during the acceleration phase. Since he specializes in 400 metres, the acceleration phase is probably no more than 60 metres or 15% of the race. The remaining 85% he is running with the advantages described by Dr Peter Brüggemann above, which seem very considerable and, to my knowledge, were not disputed. The whole thing hinges on inability to measure the exact net advantage. Doesn't seem very serious to me at all as grounds for allowing it. Maybe it has some media value, I don't know. In any case, normal running is done on legs. Skating is done on skates, blading on blades, and so on. Whatever it is that he is doing, he is not running in the same sense the others are running.

[ninman]

Yeah, I read something like that before. That's why he does 400m, he can't accelerate quickly enough for the 100m. But when he gets up to speed, then he's got the advantage.

But I just think this whole think about advantage or not is missing the point. Like you said, it isn't running, because everybody else has to do differently to him.

[JohnnyCracker]

Originally Posted by ninman

Precisely. His body, and his running technique are not the same as everybody else. That's not through training, that's through circumstance.

I also did some checking online, and he uses about 20% less oxygen to run. Not only that, the blades are not so good at accelerating, but once they get up to speed, he can run much faster than an ordinary athlete, and keep going for longer. That's why he doesn't run in the 100m, or 200m, but the middle to long distance events.

he's competing in the wrong event then
he should be dominating the 800m and 1500m
is he?

[hollywood9826]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCracker

he's competing in the wrong event then
he should be dominating the 800m and 1500m
is he?

Thats what I was thinking. If the Blades are that godly when you get up to speed he should be breaking WR every other week in the 800m. Why not go all out and run marathons. Heck he probably dont even have to move once he gets going the blades will just bounce him all along on the downhills.

[-RF-]

Yeah. He works as hard as anyone else, why not?

[Benhur]

Originally Posted by ninman

Yeah, I read something like that before. That's why he does 400m, he can't accelerate quickly enough for the 100m. But when he gets up to speed, then he's got the advantage.

But I just think this whole think about advantage or not is missing the point. Like you said, it isn't running, because everybody else has to do differently to him.

I agree that the “advantage vs disadvantage” way of looking at it is probably beside the point, because the only precise way to measure the balance would be to compare his racing with the racing he would do if he had not lost his legs as a child. Absent that, the fact that an advantage does exist, as has been pointed out by those who looked into it, should be plenty to make a decision against it. But then there is the whole media aspect of it. It’s a good story. And those who write about it in the mainstream press have to mince their words very carefully. Here is a SI article on it, where you can see the author prudently remains very ambiguous, in spite of the unambiguous information scattered throughout:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ics/index.html

[excerpts]
Among track aficionados, certain statistical comparisons have raised eyebrows: Pistorius's 100- and 200-meter bests are similar to those of U.S. sprinter Allyson Felix, but he is 4.5 seconds faster than her in the 400. As Pistorius progressed to where he could compete for a spot on South Africa's national team, another South African 400 runner who was also fighting for a spot, Sibusiso Sishi, gave his opinion: "I don't mind racing [Pistorius], but I'm still a bit skeptical about his legs because they are man-made. They are carbon fiber, which means they are nice and light. I would just like him to do the tests so at least we know where we stand."
[…]
In May of 2008, based on Kram and Herr's testimony and the data the team collected in Weyand's lab, Pistorius was reinstated. The CAS ruling explicitly noted that though the prostheses give no energetic advantage relevant to sprinting, future scientific findings could still show that the Cheetah Flex-Feet give Pistorius a mechanical advantage. Eighteen months later, Weyand and Matthew Bundle, a biomechanist at Montana and one of the other scientists who did the testing that got Pistorius reinstated, came out and said that the Cheetahs do just that.

"It was dead obvious as soon as [Bundle and I] saw the data that Oscar has an advantage," says Peter Weyand, who now directs the SMU Locomotor Performance Laboratory. "We haven't wavered from that interpretation since."
Because the CAS hearing examined specifically -- and only -- the IAAF's previous claims regarding Pistorius, it was not until the following year, when the scientific team published its full findings in the Journal of Applied Physiology, that the researchers who helped Pistorius earn the right to compete split into groups, with Weyand and Bundle contending that Pistorius has a massive advantage. To understand Weyand's reasoning, it helps to know a bit about the mechanics of sprinting.
[…]
Full article: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ics/index.html

[jmverdugo]

I do not why this thread reminded me of this one:

[Benhur]

Originally Posted by hollywood9826

Thats what I was thinking. If the Blades are that godly when you get up to speed he should be breaking WR every other week in the 800m. Why not go all out and run marathons. Heck he probably dont even have to move once he gets going the blades will just bounce him all along on the downhills.

Maybe because he is a sprinter, not a marathon runner?

If you allow me to "run" a marathon on inline skates, against the best marathon runners (running on their feet) I can guarantee you I will not win it. Is that proof that I did not have an advantage? Hardly, because the best marathon inline skaters would beat the best marathon runner by more than one hour.

The main advantage enjoyed by Pistorius is related to the fact that we cannot bring the current 400 m specialists back to their infancy, amputate their legs, give them 20 years to practice on blades, and see how fast they "run" the 400m. Since this can't happen, there is always some microscopic room for doubts, which, if wisely combined with the mediatic value of the cinderella aspect of the story, is sufficient to allow it.

[hollywood9826]

People make it seem like the blades run themselves. If South Africa can pull off a medal in the relay crap is going to hit the fan. And since they are letting him run a leg and not start he should already be up to a decent speed. It will be intersting to see how fast his split is.

[Benhur]

The advantage comes from a significant reduction of leg mass (and especially, I should add, a displacement of the legs center of mass to a point much closer to the body) which allows for much faster swing times. It’s not difficult to imagine the effect of something like this in reverse. Hold in each hand an object such that the weight of your arm is significantly increased by a comparable amount as the difference between a blade and a normal leg. Now swing your arms as fast as you can, and feel how much harder it is to swing them. Or tape some considerable weight to the middle of your calves, or to your shoes, and feel how much this slows down you leg swing.

From the IE article quoted previously:

In 2000, Weyand and a team of researchers at Harvard published a study showing that humans, from couch potatoes to pro sprinters, have essentially the same leg-swing times when they achieve their maximum speed. Says Weyand, "The line we use around the lab is, From Usain Bolt to Grandma, they reposition their limbs in virtually the same amount of time."
But Pistorius's leg-swing times, when measured on a high-speed treadmill, were off the human charts. At top speed, he swings his legs between strides in 0.284 of a second, which is 20 percent faster than intact-limbed sprinters with the same top speed. "His limbs are 20 percent lighter," Weyand says, "and he swings them 20 percent faster."
[…]
Herr, defending Pistorius, contends that the South African's rapid swing times are merely compensation for the force deficit caused by the Cheetahs and that researchers may never be able to quantify all the advantages and disadvantages of running on carbon-fiber blades. "It's going to take years and years," he says, "and it may not be knowable." To which Bundle says, "The technology is enabling him to do something that nobody else can do. That's the very definition of an advantage."
[…]
Ralph Mann, a silver medalist in the 400 hurdles in 1972 and USA Track and Field's director of sports science for sprints and hurdles, has likely analyzed high-speed film of more sprinters than any person in the world -- every U.S. championship since 1982, several world championships and five Olympic Games. When he saw the Pistorius data, he says, "I came to the conclusion that he's not using normal human ground time and air time. Air times are basically the same for every sprinter on the planet, whether high school, collegiate or pro."
SI spoke with eight independent physiologists and biomechanics experts who had no involvement with testing Pistorius, and all eight agreed that Pistorius has abnormally low leg-swing times, stemming from the lightness of his prostheses. Four felt that Pistorius has an advantage over his competitors, while four said that the low swing time is an advantage but that there may be other potential disadvantages to the prostheses that must be studied in more detail before they could say if Pistorius should be allowed to race against intact runners. "It's innocent until proven guilty," Herr says.

Amazingly, the defense manages to keep things fuzzy by insisting that the disadvantages might perhaps offset the advantages, we just don’t know, it can’t be measured, and therefore he should be allowed. I find this astonishing. Let’s say there is a hunting competition using bow and arrow. But a certain guy (with bad eyesight and only one arm), is allowed to join the competition using a gun. When people suggest this doesn’t make sense, the defenders point out that his lack of an arm and bad eyesight offset the advantage of the gun. It just makes no sense.

[sureshs]

A gun is so similar in function to a bow and arrow, it is so confusing.

[hollywood9826]

Blade Runner, McKayla is not impressed.