Finding my strokes after 20 years. Stroke video inside

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Greg G

Currently watching the Forehand SSC video in VTA here:

http://www.virtualtennisacademy.com/...ayer/index.php

And the "Millennium Forehand" article here:
http://www.virtualtennisacademy.com/...n=detail&id=13

Sign up is free, great videos and instruction.

Yes i've watched those and read the article when i was a member last year. If you notice he specifically talks about leading with elbow first, neutral wrist, and ssc. I know he does in the video. I don't remember the article exactly. I'll check it out but i'll bet he does talk about it there too.

[sunof tennis]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Greg, excellent technique overall. But, your takeback in your videos is still a bit too high compared to the takeback in the stills at pics #2 and #3. Racquet head at head height is ideal, IMO.

I agree. It also looks like the first motion you make is to take the racquet downward and then bring it back up high. A simple shoulder turn from ready position should get the racquet in pretty decent position. Your motion takes longer and it almost looks like (although it could be the camera angle that you are hitting a little late. Having said all that. Your strok looks good!

[Cheetah]

Limp, try this: stick your arm out like you are going to shake someone's hand. make sure your wrist has no flex, no extension, no deviation. 100% neutral wrist. now put your racquet in your hand while keeping that same neutral position. The racquet is pointed up and at a slight angle right? It kind of 'looks' c0cked back if you look at it from a certain angle right? And it looks just like how the pros are holding their racquet in the take back and just before the beginning of the forward swing right? This is what they are doing. Neutral, loose wrist. Then they pull forward, the wrist flexes back and they make contact with the bent back wrist.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

yes it is. it's used in all strokes including serve. it's when you stretch the muscle and you have the few millisecs to take advantage of the ssc and the muscle snaps back giving you speed/power.

Not sure how important it is, but I agree with doing it this way for several reasons and it is more natural in a sense, along with getting the wrist laid back when it needs to be.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by sunof tennis

I agree. It also looks like the first motion you make is to take the racquet downward and then bring it back up high. A simple shoulder turn from ready position should get the racquet in pretty decent position. Your motion takes longer and it almost looks like (although it could be the camera angle that you are hitting a little late. Having said all that. Your strok looks good!

More specifically, I would describe it as setting your arm and racquet position with your left hand on the throat of the racquet and at the completion of your unit turn you are ready to let go of the throat of the racquet and begin your forward turn. IMO, Greg would benefit by simply turning his upper body and eliminating the loop with his right hand.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Limp, try this: stick your arm out like you are going to shake someone's hand. make sure your wrist has no flex, no extension, no deviation. 100% neutral wrist. now put your racquet in your hand while keeping that same neutral position. The racquet is pointed up and at a slight angle right? It kind of 'looks' c0cked back if you look at it from a certain angle right? And it looks just like how the pros are holding their racquet in the take back and just before the beginning of the forward swing right? This is what they are doing. Neutral, loose wrist. Then they pull forward, the wrist flexes back and they make contact with the bent back wrist.

IMO, the optimal position of the arm and racquet to begin the unit turn back is with both the elbow and wrist at 90 degree angles, with the elbow in and forward, the hand at approximately the same height as the elbow, the top of the racquet pointing straight up, and the racquet face pointing to the side fence. When you begin your forward turn, the flex you're referring to is suppination of the forearm, not flexion of the wrist.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

He's making a big loop because he cocks his wrist back immediately from ready position and then does a takeback leading with the racquet head which pushes the head behind his body wta style. he needs to do a takeback leading with the elbow.

You're talking about suppinating in the takeback rather than at the start of the forward swing. Yes, that's a bit WTA'ish, but, I'm not too concerned about that now. However, I would strongly urge against the flying elbow in the takeback. The elbow should remain in and forward throughout the entire swing until contact when it comes up and out. He's also making a loop with his hand which shouldn't be there, IMO.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

You're talking about suppinating in the takeback rather than at the start of the forward swing. Yes, that's a bit WTA'ish, but, I'm not too concerned about that now. I would strongly urge against the flying elbow in the takeback. The elbow should remain in and forward throughout the entire swing until contact when it comes up and out. However, he's also making a loop with his hand which shouldn't be there, IMO.

Look at the videos I posted. Safin, Fed, Djoko, Almagro, Monfils. They all take the racquet back and the elbow is leading. This happens automatically if you hold both hands on the racquet and don't lead with the head of the racquet by cocking back your wrist during the takeback.

The flying elbow is when you lead with the elbow, separate your hands and keep the racquet head in front of your hand a la sampras. that's different. just leading back w/ the elbow is not a 'flying elbow'.

[Cheetah]

If you don't lead with the elbow in the takeback then maybe you are talking about an old school takeback. With a modern fh it's elbow first as illustrated by this girl who demonstrates old school fh vs modern fh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK2JougB9sg

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Look at the videos I posted. Safin, Fed, Djoko, Almagro, Monfils. They all take the racquet back and the elbow is leading. This happens automatically if you hold both hands on the racquet and don't lead with the head of the racquet by cocking back your wrist during the takeback.

The flying elbow is when you lead with the elbow, separate your hands and keep the racquet head in front of your hand a la sampras. that's different. just leading back w/ the elbow is not a 'flying elbow'.

When you say "lead with the elbow," I'm picturing Lendl and Sampras. Those are flying elbows. I don't know anyone leading with the elbow as their primary technique today. IMO, the takeback should be led with the hand, or at minimum, with the hand and elbow together. The elbow should be in and forward. So, it wouldn't be leading the hand.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

When you say "lead with the elbow," I'm picturing Lendl and Sampras. Those are flying elbows. I don't know anyone leading with the elbow as their primary technique today. IMO, the takeback should be led with the hand, or at minimum, with the hand and elbow together. The elbow should be in and forward. So, it wouldn't be leading the hand.

look at the vids i posted. they all lead with the elbow. can you show me one vid of any current male pro that doesn't take back with leading elbow?

it's called flying because the racquet head is in front of the hand/elbow after separation. like sampras. and the elbow is still going back hence the 'flying'. in modern fhs the elbow goes back and then the racquet goes behind or even with the elbow.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

look at the vids i posted. they all lead with the elbow. can you show me one vid of any current male pro that doesn't take back with leading elbow?

it's called flying because the racquet head is in front of the hand/elbow after separation. like sampras. and the elbow is still going back hence the 'flying'. in modern fhs the elbow goes back and then the racquet goes behind or even with the elbow.

Cheetah, FYI, the term "flying elbow" is a golf term. Jack Nicklaus had a flying elbow - his right elbow, especially when he was younger. To my knowledge, I am the first and only one to apply it to tennis. I have never read or heard anyone else apply that term to tennis other than me.

A flying elbow occurs when a player, employing independent arm swing from the shoulder (irreconcilable with a modern forehand), raises the elbow up and away from the body in the backswing, and snaps the elbow back down in the forward swing. Lendl and Sampras did that. So did Edberg and a few others. None of the top pros do that as a primary forehand today. Some may lead slightly with the elbow on the backswing, but, that is not optimal, IMO. The time to lead with the elbow is on the forward swing, not the backswing.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

FYI, the term "flying elbow" is a golf term. Jack Nicklaus had a flying elbow - his right elbow, especially when he was younger. To my knowledge, I am the first one to apply it to tennis. I have never read or heard anyone else apply that term to tennis other than me.

A flying elbow occurs when a player, employing independent arm swing from the shoulder (irreconcilable with a modern forehand), raises the elbow up and away from the body in the backswing, and snaps the elbow back down in the forward swing. Lendl and Sampras did that. So did Edberg and a few others. None of the top pros do that as a primary forehand today. Some may lead slightly with the elbow on the backswing, but, that is not optimal, IMO. The time to lead with the elbow is on the forward swing, not the backswing.

Yes i know it's a golf term and i did say 'after separation' which means the arm is now moving independent of the body. If you look at sampras / lendl at the end of their takeback the elbow is back and the head of the racquet is in front of the elbow ie closer to left arm say. Pro today have elbow back but racquet head is behind the elbow.

Every male pro leads with the elbow. I've posted a lot of vids in this thread. They all lead w/ the elbow. I asked you to show me a vid of even one that doesnt.

If you hold the racquet w/ 2 arms in ready position and do a unit turn w/ both hands on the racquet how is it possible to not lead w/ the elbow?

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Yes i know it's a golf term and i did say 'after separation' which means the arm is now moving independent of the body. If you look at sampras / lendl at the end of their takeback the elbow is back and the head of the racquet is in front of the elbow ie closer to left arm say. Pro today have elbow back but racquet head is behind the elbow.

Every male pro leads with the elbow. I've posted a lot of vids in this thread. They all lead w/ the elbow. I asked you to show me a vid of even one that doesnt.

If you hold the racquet w/ 2 arms in ready position and do a unit turn w/ both hands on the racquet how is it possible to not lead w/ the elbow?

Because when the elbow is in and forward, you lead the takeback with the hand.

Federer leading with the hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc

Nadal (with wrist extremely cocked) leading with the hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s6o66M1Lsg

Djokovic leading with the hand (his elbow comes slightly away from his body):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TZ2z...e=results_main

[Cheetah]

Here's Fed during his takeback. How do explain he got into the 2nd position?

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Because when the elbow is in and forward, you lead the takeback with the hand.

Federer leading with the hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc

Nadal (with wrist extremely cocked) leading with the hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s6o66M1Lsg

Djokovic leading with the hand (his elbow comes slightly away from his body):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TZ2z...e=results_main

all those videos show them leading w/ the elbow except nadal and you can see his elbow goes back before the hand. then the hand goes behind the elbow　(the backswing). the videos you showed are starting from midway from the takeback. Look at a video that shows them starting from the ready position. they lead with the elbow then elbow stops and hand goes behind.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

all those videos show them leading w/ the elbow except nadal and you can see his elbow goes back before the hand. then the hand goes behind the elbow　(the backswing). the videos you showed are starting from midway from the takeback. Look at a video that shows them starting from the ready position. they lead with the elbow then elbow stops and hand goes behind.

The backswing is what we're talking about, yes? This is leading with the elbow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3dZ0...e=results_main

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS3Ff1x7PYY

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

The backswing is what we're talking about, yes? This is leading with the elbow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3dZ0...e=results_main

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS3Ff1x7PYY

haha. last night i was thinking you were probably referrring to backswing. i was talking about unit turn/takeback. from ready position while your are standing in athletic stance facing the net with 2 hands on the racquet. then you do the unit turn (takeback). if you have 2 hands on the racquet your elbow will reach the back first. then at end of unit turn/takeback you do the backswing. that is led w/ the hand as you say. The original issue i was talking about was that OP is in athletic stance then he cocks his wrist back immediately which points his racquet head back and THEN he does the unit turn.

btw, you should watch the virtualtennisacademy vids on ssc. he has 2 of them. one in video instruction and one in articles. they are excellent. the ssc is the motion that locknroll talks about w/ the drum.

fyi all my posts come with an implied "IMHO"

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

haha. last night i was thinking you were probably referrring to backswing. i was talking about unit turn/takeback. from ready position while your are standing in athletic stance facing the net with 2 hands on the racquet. then you do the unit turn (takeback). if you have 2 hands on the racquet your elbow will reach the back first. then at end of unit turn/takeback you do the backswing. that is led w/ the hand as you say. The original issue i was talking about was that OP is in athletic stance then he cocks his wrist back immediately which points his racquet head back and THEN he does the unit turn.

btw, you should watch the virtualtennisacademy vids on ssc. he has 2 of them. one in video instruction and one in articles. they are excellent. the ssc is the motion that locknroll talks about w/ the drum.

fyi all my posts come with an implied "IMHO"

I use takeback and backswing interchangeably because, IMO, there should be very little if any independent arm swing during the unit turn back, or forth. The entire swing should consist almost exclusively of UBR and arm suppination/pronation. The arm only suppinates and pronates, it doesn't swing (much if any), from the shoulder like an old school drive. I like the way Greg has his wrist cocked back (flexed), toward him with his left hand on the racquet. But, I don't like the big loop he takes, with independent arm movement, as he turns back. He also suppinates somewhat during his unit turn back so that the racquet is tilted to the back fence (aside from the wrist being flexed), rather than straight up when he's ready to turn forward. If I'm not mistaken, I think that's your biggest criticism at this point. By doing that, he squanders some of the suppination/pronation snap generated when suppination is delayed until the hip turn forward begins (as described by the L&R guy), that you don't see on the WTA tour.

I think I understand what you mean by leading with the elbow. But, I don't like that description because "leading with the elbow" during the unit turn back can be interpreted to be the Lendl/Sampras flying elbow. As a practical matter, I don't think you need to think about leading with the elbow on the unit turn back. If I understand what you mean by that, it's automatic.

I tried to find the vids that you and Greg were referring to, but, I couldn't find anything.

[sunof tennis]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

More specifically, I would describe it as setting your arm and racquet position with your left hand on the throat of the racquet and at the completion of your unit turn you are ready to let go of the throat of the racquet and begin your forward turn. IMO, Greg would benefit by simply turning his upper body and eliminating the loop with his right hand.

I agree-you said it much better than I did.