When Your Doubles Partner Makes a Bad Line Call

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by beernutz

I don't know about dirty, but if you are deliberately not following the code, yeah I'd agree you are a cheater. Rationalize it all you want though if it helps you sleep at night.

Just don't ever over-rule your partner, no matter who, no matter what happens. People make mistakes and makes desperate calls. It is part of the game. Key is CONSISTANCY. Treat all your doubles partner the same, and don't over-rule.

This works the best. Ignorant people probably have no idea what i am talking about. but Truly this is the best way. Just play on and make your calls honest and let your partner call his lines.

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Lastly, the "cheat back" option is totally justified if you are a victim of repeated cheating, which he was not.

Sorry, could not disagree more. In my opinion there is never justification for cheating back. I will make my opponent very aware that I think he/she is cheating - they need to know that I know. But I'm not going to cheat back - winning a rec match does not mean that much to me.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

Just don't ever over-rule your partner, no matter who, no matter what happens. People make mistakes and makes desperate calls. It is part of the game. Key is CONSISTANCY. Treat all your doubles partner the same, and don't over-rule.

This works the best. Ignorant people probably have no idea what i am talking about. but Truly this is the best way. Just play on and make your calls honest and let your partner call his lines.

Seriously . . .

Why do you want to take even one point you didn't earn fair and square?

The people who don't agree with you are not "ignorant." They are just honest.

Ah, well. The great thing about this is that you can't make me take a point to which we are entitled. If I know that you made a mistake, I will simply tell you. If you don't reverse yourself, I will keep talking to you about it. Our opponents will see this discussion and ask what our call is. If you don't Man Up, I will say, "Ah well. We saw it differently, so I guess it's your point."

I will do this as often as it takes to make sure we, as a team, don't take any points we didn't earn.

And then you'll need to find a new partner.

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Seriously . . .

Why do you want to take even one point you didn't earn fair and square?

The people who don't agree with you are not "ignorant." They are just honest.

Ah, well. The great thing about this is that you can't make me take a point to which we are entitled. If I know that you made a mistake, I will simply tell you. If you don't reverse yourself, I will keep talking to you about it. Our opponents will see this discussion and ask what our call is. If you don't Man Up, I will say, "Ah well. We saw it differently, so I guess it's your point."

I will do this as often as it takes to make sure we, as a team, don't take any points we didn't earn.

And then you'll need to find a new partner.

See what i mean. You have no idea what i meant by Ignorant. You are now talking about what is just or what is honest. I am not talking about that at all.
YOur partner calls a ball out on the Serve by your opponent or side line that is on her side, right next to her. and you think you see it in. You are not supposed to over-rule that. Your partner has much better view. On those lines your partner has what is called " Linesman's view of the line". and you don't.
so you have much better chance of seeing it wrong. so Leave it be. I suppose in Women's game, ball move much slower and could see those little better. but at my level in men's game, i am standing on the service line and see the serve long, i call it out. but to my partner, returning the ball, it will look like it touched the line. due to angle of his vision.

So just let your partner make the call. YOU will be looking for the new partner, not your partner.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

See what i mean. You have no idea what i meant by Ignorant. You are now talking about what is just or what is honest. I am not talking about that at all.
YOur partner calls a ball out on the Serve by your opponent or side line that is on her side, right next to her. and you think you see it in. You are not supposed to over-rule that. Your partner has much better view. On those lines your partner has what is called " Linesman's view of the line". and you don't.
so you have much better chance of seeing it wrong. so Leave it be. I suppose in Women's game, ball move much slower and could see those little better. but at my level in men's game, i am standing on the service line and see the serve long, i call it out. but to my partner, returning the ball, it will look like it touched the line. due to angle of his vision.

So just let your partner make the call. YOU will be looking for the new partner, not your partner.

If I understand you correctly, your partner is receiving. The serve is wide, and she calls the serve out. You think it was in. Is that the situation you are describing?

In that situation, I would not overrule my partner if the serve was anywhere close to being out. *My partner is looking down the line and has the better vantage point.* She may have seen space I was not in a position to see. I am not 100% sure she was wrong, so I will not overrule.

Let's change the facts now.

Your partner is receiving and you are standing on the service line and calling the service line. You see the serve hit the back of the service line, but your partner calls it out. What do you do?

In that case, I would overrule my partner (by telling her, "Uh oh. That caught the line, so we have to give them that point. Do you want me to keep calling the service line, or do you want to do it?").

Would you let her out call stand in those circumstances?

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

If I understand you correctly, your partner is receiving. The serve is wide, and she calls the serve out. You think it was in. Is that the situation you are describing?

In that situation, I would not overrule my partner if the serve was anywhere close to being out. *My partner is looking down the line and has the better vantage point.* She may have seen space I was not in a position to see. I am not 100% sure she was wrong, so I will not overrule.

Let's change the facts now.

Your partner is receiving and you are standing on the service line and calling the service line. You see the serve hit the back of the service line, but your partner calls it out. What do you do?

In that case, I would overrule my partner (by telling her, "Uh oh. That caught the line, so we have to give them that point. Do you want me to keep calling the service line, or do you want to do it?").

Would you let her out call stand in those circumstances?

Agree completely. Service line in that case is your call, not your partner who is receiving the serve. You make that call. Your partner should not even attempt to make that call. You call it as you see it.
in 1st case, it is your partner's call.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

Sorry, could not disagree more. In my opinion there is never justification for cheating back. I will make my opponent very aware that I think he/she is cheating - they need to know that I know. But I'm not going to cheat back - winning a rec match does not mean that much to me.

If you play on a smaller court than your opponent, you are cheating yourself.

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

If you play on a smaller court than your opponent, you are cheating yourself.

I'm not playing on a smaller court - if by that you mean trying to avoid hitting close to the lines out of fear that the opponent will hook. I am going to play my game the same way. If my opponent hooks I will let them know that I think they are hooking. If they continue to hook, that's their problem, not mine. If I lose as a result, then I lose. It's not like my livelyhood hangs in the balance. YRMV.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

Agree completely. Service line in that case is your call, not your partner who is receiving the serve. You make that call. Your partner should not even attempt to make that call. You call it as you see it.
in 1st case, it is your partner's call.

Good. I am glad we have closure: You will overrule your partner when it is appropriate to do so, and nobody is declared "ignorant."

[rkelley]

To the original question:

Folks get calls wrong even even with the best of intent. When I played USTA doubles if either of us thought the ball was in we'd call it in, even if we had to overrule the other person. Be gracious, err on the side of giving the other team the point.

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Good. I am glad we have closure: You will overrule your partner when it is appropriate to do so, and nobody is declared "ignorant."

No, i will not over-rule my partner no matter what. i treat every partner the same. Only time i will go ahead and talk about it with my partner when my opponent cannot hear us. only time is when the line is mine to call as i mentioned. but i still will not over-rule my partner.

[Mauvaise]

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

No, i will not over-rule my partner no matter what.

If you won't overrule your partner when they call a ball out that they weren't in a position to call and you clearly see the ball in when you have the best vantage point of the ball, then you are wrong. And a cheater.

I wouldn't want a partner that didn't overrule me when I make a bad call (and let's face it - we *all* make bad calls, even the professional line judges make bad calls). The most important thing is getting the call right, not some twisted sense of team loyalty. I also wouldn't want to partner with someone that didn't want to be overruled.

It has nothing to do with ignorance and everything to do with sportsmanship and fair play.

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by Mauvaise

If you won't overrule your partner when they call a ball out that they weren't in a position to call and you clearly see the ball in when you have the best vantage point of the ball, then you are wrong. And a cheater.

I wouldn't want a partner that didn't overrule me when I make a bad call (and let's face it - we *all* make bad calls, even the professional line judges make bad calls). The most important thing is getting the call right, not some twisted sense of team loyalty. I also wouldn't want to partner with someone that didn't want to be overruled.

It has nothing to do with ignorance and everything to do with sportsmanship and fair play.

If it is my line to call, i will talk to my partner about it but will not over-rule. Treating all partner the same way is more important to me. We are not playing for $100,000 prize money.

[NTRPolice]

I think its worth pointing out that "overruling your partner" can be bad sometimes because it does break the synergy between you regardless of the call made or where the ball landed.

Even if the ball was a ft. in and you overrule your partner they would still get mad. They would either get mad because they tried to cheat and you didnt back them up, or they would get mad because they saw the ball out (mistakenly) and you overruled them on a ball which they thought was out.

I know this is going to make me sound bad, but i'll say it anyway...

Depending on the point depends how tight I call the line. If its a set point and I see the ball 1 inch (or less) out, its out. If its a regular point in a game I would probably play it. The point im trying to make is that id normally play a ball out of good faith most of the time. I may have seen both balls out, but id only exercise my right to call the line that tight in a critical point. I really hate calling the line personally and would much rather let an official do it. I've been known to play balls a few inches out just because I dont want to call it out

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Mauvaise

If you won't overrule your partner when they call a ball out that they weren't in a position to call and you clearly see the ball in when you have the best vantage point of the ball, then you are wrong. And a cheater.

I wouldn't want a partner that didn't overrule me when I make a bad call (and let's face it - we *all* make bad calls, even the professional line judges make bad calls). The most important thing is getting the call right, not some twisted sense of team loyalty. I also wouldn't want to partner with someone that didn't want to be overruled.

It has nothing to do with ignorance and everything to do with sportsmanship and fair play.

+ 1000.

I am surprised that anyone would openly admit to taking a point they know with 100% certainty wasn't theirs to take. Pretty awful behavior.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

I know this is going to make me sound bad, but i'll say it anyway...

Depending on the point depends how tight I call the line. If its a set point and I see the ball 1 inch (or less) out, its out. If its a regular point in a game I would probably play it. The point im trying to make is that id normally play a ball out of good faith most of the time. I may have seen both balls out, but id only exercise my right to call the line that tight in a critical point. I really hate calling the line personally and would much rather let an official do it. I've been known to play balls a few inches out just because I dont want to call it out

You've got it exactly backward. If you consider the score at all, you should bend over backward to call lines more generously on set point. In other words, it needs to be *way* out on set point so that there will be no question in the minds of your opponent and yourself that you didn't steal the set.

Me, I try to ignore the score in calling lines. In the instances where I have let the score enter my mind, it has caused me to play balls I thought were out. That's because I want to be extra-sure my brain and eyes are not being greedy and "willing" the ball out.

Better is just watch the ball, look for space, and play it as good if you aren't sure you saw space. Easy.

[g4driver]

Originally Posted by J_R_B

You need to pull him aside, tell him the call was definitely wrong, and give hiim the opportunity to reverse it himself first. If he still refuses, then change it yourself. Don't cheat.

So simple to do exactly what JRB wrote.

It doesn't throw your partner under the bus. Just as important it shows you won't cheat to win and that your team is united.

[Mauvaise]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

Even if the ball was a ft. in and you overrule your partner they would still get mad. They would either get mad because they tried to cheat and you didnt back them up, or they would get mad because they saw the ball out (mistakenly) and you overruled them on a ball which they thought was out.

Then you're playing with the wrong partners. If they get mad because you didn't back up their cheating, then good for you and who cares if they get mad! If they get mad because they made a bad call and you corrected it, then they need to get over themselves because it's not about their pride but about getting the call right. Period.

I tell every new partner that I *want* be overruled if I make an incorrect call and that I'll do the same. It's happened during matches in both directions and no one has gotten mad.

Maybe I've just been lucky or maybe because I've gone on record from the start that correct calls are more important to me than backing up my partner on an incorrect call (deliberate or otherwise) they make darn sure the ball is 100% out before calling it so. Either way, it's worked for me and I'm sure my opponents appreciate it.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

I'm not playing on a smaller court - if by that you mean trying to avoid hitting close to the lines out of fear that the opponent will hook. I am going to play my game the same way. If my opponent hooks I will let them know that I think they are hooking. If they continue to hook, that's their problem, not mine. If I lose as a result, then I lose. It's not like my livelyhood hangs in the balance. YRMV.

Well, the lines are in the same place but from a practical standpoint you are playing on a smaller court.

I don't think your strategy for dealing with this incredibly rare issue is unreasonable, you are valuing your personal integrity (for playing by the rules) over all else and as you point out, it is not impacting your income. I therefore don't disagree with your choice, per se'.

I have found, though, that people treat you the way you let them treat you. Let me put it this way: if you ended up playing the same guy later, which strategy for dealing with him is more likely to change his behavior (with the understanding that it is totally possible that nothing will change his behavior)?

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Well, the lines are in the same place but from a practical standpoint you are playing on a smaller court.

I don't think your strategy for dealing with this incredibly rare issue is unreasonable, you are valuing your personal integrity (for playing by the rules) over all else and as you point out, it is not impacting your income. I therefore don't disagree with your choice, per se'.

I have found, though, that people treat you the way you let them treat you. Let me put it this way: if you ended up playing the same guy later, which strategy for dealing with him is more likely to change his behavior (with the understanding that it is totally possible that nothing will change his behavior)?

I agree with the bolded bit - that's why I think it's important to let the opponent know that you know they are hooking.

But IMO if that doesn't shame them into changing their behavior, then hooking back isn't likely to, either. And at that point it just degenerates into a contest in blatant hooking - not tennis, and not much fun. Kinda reminds me of another thread a while back about 2 sandbaggers trying to throw the match to each other