Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by kiki

While I don´t want to underrate him, I wonder how many majors did he win at RG,Wimbleodn,US Championships (later US Open) and the Australian Championships ( later AO).Same for Nusslein.

And I know pros were banned...but Pancho Gonzales won Forest Hills twice in a row and also the DC if memory serves.

Nusslein was banned from the amateurs. He was found guilty of accepting gifts and money by the German Tennis Federation, who said that it was tantamount to turning professional. Nusslein had no choice but to play tennis professionally if he wanted to play tennis competitions. I don't know if Nusslein ever even played a match as an amateur.

And as I've already pointed out, Nusslein won Roland Garros twice as a professional in the French Pro. Best clay-court player of the 1930s, most probably.

Although Gonzales turned professional at age 21, he had already had 3 years as an amateur before this. And Segura, while being a good player as an amateur (reaching 4 US Championships semi finals in a row from 1942-1945, and the quarters in 1946 and 1947), he really came into his own a few years into his professional career (around 1950).

When Segura turned professional in late 1947, Kramer (Wimbledon and US Championships holder) and Pails (Australian Championships holder) also turned professional. Kramer was to challenge the world's best professional player, Riggs, and Pails and Segura were to play against each other on the undercard of the tour. Pails won the tour 41-31, so Segura didn't have the quickest start early on in his professional career. As I said, it was around 1950 that he went up several levels, winning the US Pro (the first of 3 in a row on different surfaces) and becoming the second best player in the world behind Kramer.

Segura also did a lot better on the 1951 world pro tour against Kramer than what Gonzales had managed the previous year.

Originally Posted by kiki

Another great champion who was IMO, the 7 th best player of the great 1950´s troop was Alex Olmedo, a Wimbledon and US Opne winner and the man that singlehandedly restored the DC to the US... he even dared beating laver in a slam title¡¡¡

And Segura was better than Olmedo in 1960, as the world pro tour showed.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

The top 6 of the 50´s, which is, I stated it before, one of the toughest eras ever if not the toughest at the top are Kramer,Sedgman,Gonzales,Hoad,Rosewall and Trabert.Those guys won majors, and Cooper and Anderson won majors, too, as amateurs.Plus they continued to dominate as pros.Segura´s problem ( just as Nusslein) is that his record is poor and can´t compare to the others.However, I heard a bit about him being a very talented player.Nusslein,Segura,Mecir,Rios,Murray,Okker,Lut z,Pecci and Ramirez/ Gottfried and Franulovic/Pilic may have been the most talented guys to never win a major.But this fact just does not allow them to be in the big boys leagues,IMO.

Your logic and knowledge about tennis is really unique. How can you say that Nüsslein and Segura did not win a major? Many posters have informed you that both have won pro majors. In my count Nüsslein won 11 pro majors 1933 to 1939 and Segura has won three pro majors (1950 to 1952).

Nüsslein was banned at 16 from the amateur circuit. In fact he never played an amateur match! Believe me, I know a quite a bit about the Little Nut...

Segura, as also other posters told you, reached his prime only at 29 which is an exception of the rule that then players used to reach their prime at about 25.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by kiki

While I don´t want to underrate him, I wonder how many majors did he win at RG,Wimbleodn,US Championships (later US Open) and the Australian Championships ( later AO).Same for Nusslein.

And I know pros were banned...but Pancho Gonzales won Forest Hills twice in a row and also the DC if memory serves.

Another great champion who was IMO, the 7 th best player of the great 1950´s troop was Alex Olmedo, a Wimbledon and US Opne winner and the man that singlehandedly restored the DC to the US... he even dared beating laver in a slam title¡¡¡

Again using your same logic Kodes is perhaps superior to Pancho Gonzalez because he won three majors to Pancho Gonzalez's two majors. And of course according to official ATP records Pancho Gonzalez won three tournaments in his career so Kodes would been superior there also because Kodes won eight tournaments in his career according to the ATP.

The reality is that Kodes is not close to Pancho Gonzalez in talent and accomplishments. And the other Pancho, Pancho Segura is one of the all time greats.

So are we to the point now that Jan Kodes is superior to Pancho Gonzalez much less Pancho Segura?

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Your logic and knowledge about tennis is really unique. How can you say that Nüsslein and Segura did not win a major? Many posters have informed you that both have won pro majors. In my count Nüsslein won 11 pro majors 1933 to 1939 and Segura has won three pro majors (1950 to 1952).

Nüsslein was banned at 16 from the amateur circuit. In fact he never played an amateur match! Believe me, I know a quite a bit about the Little Nut...

Segura, as also other posters told you, reached his prime only at 29 which is an exception of the rule that then players used to reach their prime at about 25.

So Segura won 3 pro majors with no qualified pro in other than Gonzales and Kramer? why did not Segura win a por major after 1952, why did it happen?

As for Nusslein, his record looks far better than the equatorian...but, which were the draws upon he took the 11 titles? I have no problem with them, just we need to be serious...

[kiki]

Originally Posted by pc1

Again using your same logic Kodes is perhaps superior to Pancho Gonzalez because he won three majors to Pancho Gonzalez's two majors. And of course according to official ATP records Pancho Gonzalez won three tournaments in his career so Kodes would been superior there also because Kodes won eight tournaments in his career according to the ATP.

The reality is that Kodes is not close to Pancho Gonzalez in talent and accomplishments. And the other Pancho, Pancho Segura is one of the all time greats.

So are we to the point now that Jan Kodes is superior to Pancho Gonzalez much less Pancho Segura?

I never said Kodes better than GOnzales.It is your imagination that got you so far...unbelievable.

Pancho was a clean better player than Kodes.But Segura and Nusslein...

you know, it is a marketing thing.If your tour has such greats like Kramer,Sedgman and Gonzales ( till Hoad and Rosewall joint) but nothing else, you want to sell it and not get people bored of seeing the same names all over...it just minors the tour, thus, the income players get.It is so clean and logical...same for Nusslein in the midst of a Tilden, a Cochet or a Perry.It lowers down public and media attention because of too much seen, so sell other heros...that was the role that excellent players ( I never questioned that) like the Equatorian Pancho and the German Nusslein brought in...it made them earn real money and boosted a bit the tour.

Kodes faced a much much deeper field than Segura and won 3 majors with 128 players in...not possible to compare.Just another league...

[kiki]

Originally Posted by pc1

Again using your same logic Kodes is perhaps superior to Pancho Gonzalez because he won three majors to Pancho Gonzalez's two majors. And of course according to official ATP records Pancho Gonzalez won three tournaments in his career so Kodes would been superior there also because Kodes won eight tournaments in his career according to the ATP.

The reality is that Kodes is not close to Pancho Gonzalez in talent and accomplishments. And the other Pancho, Pancho Segura is one of the all time greats.

So are we to the point now that Jan Kodes is superior to Pancho Gonzalez much less Pancho Segura?

Segura an all time great? WOWWWW

[pc1]

Originally Posted by kiki

So Segura won 3 pro majors with no qualified pro in other than Gonzales and Kramer? why did not Segura win a por major after 1952, why did it happen?

As for Nusslein, his record looks far better than the equatorian...but, which were the draws upon he took the 11 titles? I have no problem with them, just we need to be serious...

Bobby Riggs, Elwood Cooke, Van Horne, Kovacs, Budge were top players that were among Segura's other victims in the US Pros that he won.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by kiki

Segura an all time great? WOWWWW

Yes he is. He accomplished more in the super tough Old Pro Tour of the 1950's than most players you would call Hall of Famers in their careers.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by kiki

I never said Kodes better than GOnzales.It is your imagination that got you so far...unbelievable.

Pancho was a clean better player than Kodes.But Segura and Nusslein...

you know, it is a marketing thing.If your tour has such greats like Kramer,Sedgman and Gonzales ( till Hoad and Rosewall joint) but nothing else, you want to sell it and not get people bored of seeing the same names all over...it just minors the tour, thus, the income players get.It is so clean and logical...same for Nusslein in the midst of a Tilden, a Cochet or a Perry.It lowers down public and media attention because of too much seen, so sell other heros...that was the role that excellent players ( I never questioned that) like the Equatorian Pancho and the German Nusslein brought in...it made them earn real money and boosted a bit the tour.

Kodes faced a much much deeper field than Segura and won 3 majors with 128 players in...not possible to compare.Just another league...

I know you don't mean that but I'm am simply using your own logic when you discuss Segura. You're not being consistent with your logic and reasoning.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by kiki

So Segura won 3 pro majors with no qualified pro in other than Gonzales and Kramer? why did not Segura win a por major after 1952, why did it happen?

Because of Gonzales mostly, who beat him in a lot of pro majors.

In the 1950 US Pro, Segura beat Nogrady, Van Horn, Kramer and Kovacs
In the 1951 US Pro, Segura beat Parker, Van Horn, Riggs and Gonzales
In the 1952 US Pro, Segura beat Doyle, Budge and Gonzales

Segura also reached the final of another 4 US Pros (1955, 1956, 1957, 1962)
Segura also famously reached the final of 4 Wembley Pros (1951, 1957, 1959, 1960) without ever winning the tournament.

Originally Posted by kiki

As for Nusslein, his record looks far better than the equatorian...but, which were the draws upon he took the 11 titles? I have no problem with them, just we need to be serious...

In the 1934 US Pro, Nusslein beat Jennings, Pare, Vines and Kozeluh
In the 1937 French Pro, Nusslein beat Ramillon, Tilden and Cochet
In the 1937 Wembley Pro, Nusslein beat Plaa, Stoefen and Tilden
In the 1938 French Pro, Nusslein beat Pettit, Plaa and Tilden
In the 1938 Wembley Pro, Nusslein beat Tilden

[kiki]

Originally Posted by pc1

Bobby Riggs, Elwood Cooke, Van Horne, Kovacs, Budge were top players that were among Segura's other victims in the US Pros that he won.

Only Riggs and Budge have credentials, Riggs was a decent champion but Budge was a truley great one...the rest of the names are unknown.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by pc1

I know you don't mean that but I'm am simply using your own logic when you discuss Segura.

So Segure is whispered in the same sentence as Gonzales, now?? I am sorry, I am getting lost.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by kiki

So Segure is whispered in the same sentence as Gonzales, now?? I am sorry, I am getting lost.

Segura was Gonzales' biggest long term rival, along with Sedgman. But for Gonzales, Segura would have won a lot more. Gonzales thwarted him many times in the US Pro, the Tournament of Champions and the Wembley Pro.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by kiki

So Segure is whispered in the same sentence as Gonzales, now?? I am sorry, I am getting lost.

Kiki,

I know you understand and are pretending to be confused. You know exactly what I mean.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Because of Gonzales mostly, who beat him in a lot of pro majors.

In the 1950 US Pro, Segura beat Nogrady, Van Horn, Kramer and Kovacs
In the 1951 US Pro, Segura beat Parker, Van Horn, Riggs and Gonzales
In the 1952 US Pro, Segura beat Doyle, Budge and Gonzales

Segura also reached the final of another 4 US Pros (1955, 1956, 1957, 1962)
Segura also famously reached the final of 4 Wembley Pros (1951, 1957, 1959, 1960) without ever winning the tournament.



In the 1934 US Pro, Nusslein beat Jennings, Pare, Vines and Kozeluh
In the 1937 French Pro, Nusslein beat Ramillon, Tilden and Cochet
In the 1937 Wembley Pro, Nusslein beat Plaa, Stoefen and Tilden
In the 1938 French Pro, Nusslein beat Pettit, Plaa and Tilden
In the 1938 Wembley Pro, Nusslein beat Tilden

While it is not my intention to downgrade him, ( at least not to the levels most posters downgraded Kodes), I must say that:

1950: only Kramer is a big name
1951: this is a great win, with Gonzales,Parker,Riggs ( a bit old )...but just like Gimeno in 67 or Pecci in RG 79 (Vilas,Connors,Solomon,Barazutti)
1952:Budge was an old man, 14 years after his prime, Doyle, never hear dof and Gonzales was a very good win.

That credits Segura as a very dangerous upper class journeyman, but he lacks credentials to even start to be compared with all timers.Mayer beat Borg and Mc Enroe at the 1980 Masters, I don´t think Segura is better than Gene Mayer ( who also beat Lendl...and played double handed both sides, jsut as Segura¡¡¡)

Nusslein:

1934:Tilden is very old, Vines is a great win, the rest are unknown
1937: looks like a senior event.Tilden and Cochet OVER their 40´.. the rest is just a repetition...mere journeymen and GRANFA Tilden, sorry, but Nusslein had wins that were so much predictable...he was like Clerc or Gerulaitis AT MOST....

[Mustard]

Segura is the second best player of the 1950s, kiki. At worst, he is the third best of the 1950s.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

While it is not my intention to downgrade him, ( at least not to the levels most posters downgraded Kodes), I must say that:

1950: only Kramer is a big name
1951: this is a great win, with Gonzales,Parker,Riggs ( a bit old )...but just like Gimeno in 67 or Pecci in RG 79 (Vilas,Connors,Solomon,Barazutti)
1952:Budge was an old man, 14 years after his prime, Doyle, never hear dof and Gonzales was a very good win.

That credits Segura as a very dangerous upper class journeyman, but he lacks credentials to even start to be compared with all timers.Mayer beat Borg and Mc Enroe at the 1980 Masters, I don´t think Segura is better than Gene Mayer ( who also beat Lendl...and played double handed both sides, jsut as Segura¡¡¡)

Nusslein:

1934:Tilden is very old, Vines is a great win, the rest are unknown
1937: looks like a senior event.Tilden and Cochet OVER their 40´.. the rest is just a repetition...mere journeymen and GRANFA Tilden, sorry, but Nusslein had wins that were so much predictable...he was like Clerc or Gerulaitis AT MOST....

kiki, You don't have understanding of tennis history, or you just are trolling.

Segura is in Hall of Fame.

When you say Kovacs and van Horn are unknown you are a bloody ignorant, as so often you have proved...

Old Tilden played tremendously in 1934 and even later. He won 26 matches against world's best, Vines, in their big tour.

In 1937 Cochet was NOT over his 40's...

Austria's former chancellor, Bruno Kreisky, who was respected all over the world, once said to an ignorant journalist: "Learn history!". The same is true for you!

[krosero]

wrong post

[krosero]

Originally Posted by kiki

Segura an all time great? WOWWWW

That's right. Vines once made a list of the Top 10 players from Budge to the Open Era. He ranked Segura #5.

Here's what Bobby Riggs said about him:

Segura is the most underrated of professional champions.

Everybody forgets he won the U.S. pro tournament three years in a row (1950-51-52). I played the 1950 tournament at Forest Hills and lost in the semis to Kovacs, who was in fantastic form, and believe it or not, Segura put out Kramer in the other semis and proceeded to beat Kovacs, too, for the title.

Segura's two-hand forehanded is the best single shot in tennis history, even superior to Budge's backhand ... he could do even more with it because of the deception. Segura also had the most deceptive dropshot in the game's history.

[BobbyOne]

kiki,

Nüsslein was better than Clerc and Gerulaitis and, listen, even than Jan Kodes.

Nüsslein was arguably No.2 in two years while the three former never were...