What do you do with your doubles partners that always serve wide?

[spot]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

that case I think your forehand is much better than mine (and that of the people I play with)! I find it very hard to consistently make that DTL shot against a decent server on a serve swinging wide. If I were playing you, I would test you a few times on that shot - it you prove you can make it often enough, then I stop doing it, but not until then.

I just don't see how this is possible. Its going down the line so I can be late on the ball. I have a 12 foot window to hit into. If you even give me the alley on that side then I am going to take it. If you give me 1/3 of the court then I just don't see where its going to go wrong. I mean if I was telling you that I could easily get there in time to rip it sharply crosscourt I would understand your skepticism but in this situation its leaving one side completely vacated.

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by spot

I just don't see how this is possible. Its going down the line so I can be late on the ball. I have a 12 foot window to hit into. If you even give me the alley on that side then I am going to take it. If you give me 1/3 of the court then I just don't see where its going to go wrong. I mean if I was telling you that I could easily get there in time to rip it sharply crosscourt I would understand your skepticism but in this situation its leaving one side completely vacated.

Well I don't think it's 12 feet... my original diagram was not very good so I'm stealing yours... Maybe this is more realistic:



Maybe a 6 ft target right at the baseline, and more narrow assuming you don't hit the baseline, e.g. 3 ft at the service line. The wedge of target you have available to you is I think hard to hit, assuming a decent serve.

Not saying you personally can't do it, just saying that in my group, this is a difficult low-percentage shot.

[tennis_ocd]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

If the server stands wider and serves to the center, then the serve is still going over the lowest part of the net, no? I mean, Spot's diagram shows that we are talking about a serve going directly over the center strap versus going a few inches farther along the top of the net. How much height difference can there be between the net strap and six inches farther over? Quarter of an inch?

Spot's diagrams show a shot going directly over the strap but not to the t (shows a serve to the body - which might in itself be a good idea to cheat to the alley if a body serve's your goal.) If you stand wide and hit the T you've got perhaps an additional 2" of net to clear.

[LeeD]

Partner can serve ANYWHERE, as long as your team is winning the points.
Partner, or YOU, have to start to think, if you're losing the points.

[spot]

Orange- I'm going to go overkill on this just because I think its an interesting question. Here are 2 diagrams where I am asusming the server stays back. I've got the net person with a range of 10 feet and the back person with a range of 30 feet since they get to let the ball bounce. Here is with the Net person pretty much in the middle of the box where you had them in that original diagram.



I think that is a VERY easy return with that much baseline available. Again- thats a full 1/3 of the baseline...

Here is the court coverage for where I think the net person should be set up on the return of serve when the ball is wide.


On a wide serve I think the net person should probably have one foot in the alley.

You can pick different numbers for how much range you think that a net person or the baseline person has. 10 feet and 30 feet I thought was pretty reasonable.

To see how my assumptions look when serving up the middle here you go.



That looks about right to me when the net player is set up in an aggressive position.

[Sakkijarvi]

OP, sounds more like a 3.0 game you have going. Prolly the servers can't place their serves and just hit to the one place in the box where they feel they can get it in.

[OrangePower]

Spot, I guess we have different assumptions on what the net player can cover while in "normal" position. I've never thought to actually measure this in practice, but for example if it's 14ft instead of 10ft, it might end up that hte net person in normal position can actually cover almost as much as you have in your 2nd diagram (showing net person moving wide).

I'm just going off my playing experience here - so it's interesting to see how it ends up when drawn with all the angles and measurements etc

[spot]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

Spot, I guess we have different assumptions on what the net player can cover while in "normal" position. I've never thought to actually measure this in practice, but for example if it's 14ft instead of 10ft, it might end up that hte net person in normal position can actually cover almost as much as you have in your 2nd diagram (showing net person moving wide).

I'm just going off my playing experience here - so it's interesting to see how it ends up when drawn with all the angles and measurements etc

OK- here are the diagrams with 14 feet instead of 10 feet.





I'd still greatly prefer my net player take away the down the line return when I serve wide. (though my wide serving is almost always to the Ad side) Particularly if someone is getting to the ball late that is just ceding too much ground to them in my opinion. I think consistenly people underestimate how far over they should be sliding when the ball is out side. And when a team is two up I also think that the crosscourt player often doesn't slide nearly enough towards the middle but thats a different discussion.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by tennis_ocd

Spot's diagrams show a shot going directly over the strap but not to the t (shows a serve to the body - which might in itself be a good idea to cheat to the alley if a body serve's your goal.) If you stand wide and hit the T you've got perhaps an additional 2" of net to clear.

OK, I will give you 2". If I serve from the doubles alley to the T, the net is 2" higher than if I served from the center hash.

In exchange for that 2", I get some things in return. I get the ability to go T, body or wide, coupled with the fact that I am not telegraphing my serve intention so openly. I also get a net person who is a foot or so closer to being able to poach because she doesn't have to shade toward the alley.

Again, these things are often level-dependent. I play with 4.0/3.5 women, and I get tired of women who alley camp. If my partner starts the point shaded toward the alley, chances are high she won't poach.

One thing I have noticed in mixed, however, is that the serve and return come very quickly. I don't have time for crouching (at my advanced age) and I don't have time to slide toward the middle after the serve is struck. I really feel I only have time to recognize where my partner hit the serve and take that one step/split.

That's asking a lot of me in exchange for 2" of net height.

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by spot

OK- here are the diagrams with 14 feet instead of 10 feet.





I'd still greatly prefer my net player take away the down the line return when I serve wide. (though my wide serving is almost always to the Ad side) Particularly if someone is getting to the ball late that is just ceding too much ground to them in my opinion. I think consistenly people underestimate how far over they should be sliding when the ball is out side. And when a team is two up I also think that the crosscourt player often doesn't slide nearly enough towards the middle but thats a different discussion.

Yes I think these diagrams are pretty accurate. In the first one though, the server can slide a bit more to his right to cover even more of the sharp CC return. And notice how much court coverage the net player has in diagram 1 - he is in position to end many points there and then. It absolutely presents significantly more of a DTL target than diagram 2. But diagram 2 leaves the net person unable to take advantage of as many shots directed towards the middle of the courts, which are going to be more common (against good serves). Diagram 1 represents the percentage play that IMO will win you more points, until and unless the returner proves that he can take advantage of the DTL opportunity. Maybe it comes down to the individual skillsets of the people involved, and your experiences are different to mine.

[spot]

Yes I think these diagrams are pretty accurate. In the first one though, the server can slide a bit more to his right to cover even more of the sharp CC return.

I tried to put the server in the spot where I think that they normally do cover. I've not known a server to serve and then go stand outside of the doubles alley though I agree by the diagram that they could do so to take away more "winner" returns. I just don't see servers actually setting up any wider than what I put on the diagram. To me if the net player doesn't slide over to cover the alley then the seving team is basically just playing the I formation and its a complete and total waste. Actually... let me put together a diagram of where I think that the net player shoudl be set up if the team is in the switched formation (australian) to make it more obvious how out of position I think the net player is where you want them.



I think that I likely step over even further than that... You have your net player just a couple steps away from where I would put them in Australian formation. I am just a huge believer in sliding aggressively to adjust for the angles.

REally it just comes down to whether you think that the net player will be able to put away enough balls to compensage for the number of times they are taken down the line into the open court for a winner. Personally I think its suicide to leave that much court open but that very well could be because I have a loopy topspin forehand and thats a ball I always will look to drop down the line if the net person doesn't slide over enough.

I just can't understand why people would choose to give away the down the line return when thats the easiest return for people who get to the ball late.

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by spot

REally it just comes down to whether you think that the net player will be able to put away enough balls to compensage for the number of times they are taken down the line into the open court for a winner.

That's exactly it.

[Cindysphinx]

Spot,

I agree that the net player needs to adjust, but some people adjust too much. Indeed, I think it is more common for the net player to over-adjust than to under-adjust.

I think you have adjusted enough if you can get a racket on that DTL shot with 1-2step. That means you don't have to be standing in the alley to cover the DTL.

Sometimes, I keep a mental score of how often the returner win the point DTL versus how often they miss. I have never had a returner burn me more times than they miss long, wide, into the net or into my racket. The worst I have ever done is a tie, and this is in situations when the returner seems to love that shot and tries it at every opportunity.

My evidence that people over-adjust is this: I like to hit a FH DTL and play deuce court most of the time. I cannot remember the last time I hit a DTL service return. The reason is that most folks alley camp, and if they are going to concede the crosscourt return to me, I am going to take it every time.

[dcdoorknob]

Another key in this discussion, imo, is that we're talking about a "good" wide serve. To me this almost by definition means the returner is going to have trouble just taking it down the alley at will. If someone at your level is feeding you serves that you can accurately take down the alley consistently, either it's not that good of a serve or you are just some awesome alley-returner for your level (I haven't come across many of those, tho I have come across those that try way to often and are successful less than half the time.)

So if the alley return is low percentage, as the server's partner I'm not at all opposed to letting or even encouraging my opponents to try it.

On the other hand, if it's a good serve and they take the return crosscourt, it's a pretty easy shot to pull off if the net man is alley-hugging and giving up the whole middle of the court. It becomes much harder if the net-man is actively looking to cut off anything that ends up hanging over the middle of the court (which will be pretty common if it is, again, a good serve imo, it's easy to catch a good wide serve a bit later than you intended). Those floaty middle-court balls will be pretty easy to put away for the netman assuming he's looking for them and isn't letting them float on by, imo.

As a returner in those situations I personally greatly prefer the opposing net man to over the down the line like a hawk than for them to cut off my not perfectly struck/directed crosscourt return attempts (again, which will be common if the serve is good) for winners.

If we're instead talking about a weak, floaty sitter serve that just hangs there for the returner to hit wherever they want, then sure, the netman should stand his ground covering the line.

[chatt_town]

I'd try to reason with them especially if they don't move well. Make them understand that the whole court is exposed when you do that. If they can't understand that and you are losing a lot, I'd find another partner. Most good doubles teams I've seen keep most of the balls in the middle of the court and when they do hit it wide both are in the service box and alley of the side the ball is in.

Originally Posted by AR15

On my men's 3.5 team, and especially on the mixed teams I play on, I have several partners that serve from the allies, and serve wide on almost every serve. As the net guy, I feel like I'm floundering around attempting to make something happen (poach) under difficult circumstances. Most serve returns are going back extreme cross court, and if I try to get a head start on them, the returner goes up the line.

What do you do when this happens?

[tennis_ocd]

Watched the Bryans play several games at the US open and I have to admit, they served many more out wide than I'd have thought. Women tended to keep them more up the middle.

[corbind]

Originally Posted by tennis_ocd

Watched the Bryans play several games at the US open and I have to admit, they served many more out wide than I'd have thought.

I agree they served more wide than I've seen in a long time. Yet by and large serving wide in doubles is not the norm in the higher ranks.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Spot,

I agree that the net player needs to adjust, but some people adjust too much. Indeed, I think it is more common for the net player to over-adjust than to under-adjust.

I think you have adjusted enough if you can get a racket on that DTL shot with 1-2step. That means you don't have to be standing in the alley to cover the DTL.

Sometimes, I keep a mental score of how often the returner win the point DTL versus how often they miss. I have never had a returner burn me more times than they miss long, wide, into the net or into my racket. The worst I have ever done is a tie, and this is in situations when the returner seems to love that shot and tries it at every opportunity.

My evidence that people over-adjust is this: I like to hit a FH DTL and play deuce court most of the time. I cannot remember the last time I hit a DTL service return. The reason is that most folks alley camp, and if they are going to concede the crosscourt return to me, I am going to take it every time.

I partially agree with the "overadjust" comment (for wide serves), in the sense that for most of my competition, it is easier to hit a DTL winner (admittedly changing directions, higher net, shorter court etc) than a CC winner, since the server is likely in the forecourt or at least mid court. For that reason I "overadjust" to convince the returner to go CC to my partner's forehand. After awhile some of the more observant returners will start to try to sneak a ball between us just to my FH when I am leaning towards the alley. In that case I will set up in the alley but lean or adjust towards the center of the court, that is, over then under adjust, midpoint.

None of my competition alley camps routinely, if anything they lean towards the center of the court (where weak returns typically go). Yet another reason why DTL returns are common.

[Setmatch45]

Can he serve all areas of the box? If so use signals to direct the serve where you want.