Mixed Doubles Strats?

[jaybear1909]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

It is here too, but as a 4.0, its possible for her to play 9.0 and she could be up against a 5.0 guy.

Right, but every point starts with a serve. You dont need to serve bullets, but you cant serve ducks either.




Yes, as you mentioned, two distinct serves, a first and second. Or she should have two good serves she can use twice. A 50 mph first serve disqualifies her from that almost instantly because a 50 mph "spin" serve wont have any movement on it at all and its certainly not going to bounce high either.



Serve speed indicates to me a persons physical potential. To serve 80 with good spin you need to be able to hit over 100 flat, for example. The racket head speed required for both is the same, it's just that the ball is struck differently.

It's not about the raw speed really.



You said it yourself. This serve is going the same speed as a ground stroke.

Except that:

1) I know where this "ground stroke" is going to land unlike in a potential rally because this "ground stroke" has to land inside the service box to start the point.
2) In a ground stroke rally im behind the baseline and not standing well inside of it like I would be when I receive this serve.
3) Unless this "ground stroke" serve is super low like a slice then I can put it away almost immediately, or make a strong offensive shot setting up a put away.
4) Any 4.0 that I know, man or woman can put away a ball that lands inside the service box provided its not a low volley exchange. You cant possibly tell me this ball is as low as a slice or a proper volley.
5) I can run around this ball and hit a forehand every single time unlike in a legit backhand to backhand baseline exchange.


That should clue you in a little.

I assume the 4.0 in question isnt a super senior honorary 4.0 who took up tennis when she was 60. If she's not that, she really has no excuse to be serving that slow as a first serve. None.

If this were a 4.0 tournament I were playing I'd be a little more concerned. I'm sure our opponents will have some type of a field day with her service games, but we will likely return the favor when their weaker server is up. I can't teach her a 70 mph kick, 100 mph flat overnight (she'll likely never hit this hard in her lifetime).

She's quick and she can counter-attack from the baseline, so if they hit a blatant winner off her serve it would be because A) I'm being lazy or B) They hit a great angle. If they can do this consistenly they shouldn't be playing at 4.0. I'm not anywhere near as worried about losing her first serves as I am about losing her seconds.

I'll try to bring this thread back up at the end of the season and let you know how we did.

[Mike Y]

LOL at 4.0 women having 80 mph serves. If any 4.0 woman has an 80mph serve, then it would be a monster serve. There are some WTA women who have 80 mph first serves. I am an average to good 4.5 male, and my serve tops out at around 90 mph, I'm sure many of my first serves are in the 80s (albeit my serve is the weakest part of my game), so her first serves would be almost as fast as mine. I don't think so.

As to the OP's point, I always like the lefty on the deuce side so there are two forehands in the middle. But in general the better player should be on the Ad side.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by spot

... I simply think that you are talking out of your ***.

Well, isn't that the purpose Al Gore invented the internet for, so that we ALL have the freedom to talk out of our asses?

[tennis_ocd]

Originally Posted by Mike Y

LOL at 4.0 women having 80 mph serves. If any 4.0 woman has an 80mph serve, then it would be a monster serve.

Agreed. There is some gross misconception over serve speeds here. 50 mph from the female in 8.0 is fine if she handles a heavy cross court return. (Even if she can't, some poaching will mix things up and get you some points on the male side to hold.) 50 mph will get the ball deep enough in the box to permit the net person to handle 4.0 forehands. If she can place the 50 mph it verges on becoming a weapon unless the net guy is slow or lacks volley skills.

It's doubles. If a 4.0 returner is putting away relatively deep serves, regardless of serve speed, there is something more flawed with the serving team than the serve.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

4) Any 4.0 that I know, man or woman can put away a ball that lands inside the service box provided its not a low volley exchange. You cant possibly tell me this ball is as low as a slice or a proper volley.

If you spend any time over at the Instruction Board at TT, you will see that there are plenty of players who struggle to punish a short ball. When I play 8.0 mixed, I see a lot of 4.0 guys who miss the weak serve of the opposing female. Happens all the time. Generating your own pace gives a lot of players trouble, and 4.0 guys can struggle with this when they know they must get their return past a net player.

Also remember that there is a lot of variety in the playing styles of 4.0 men. There are some 4.0 guys who are pushers with poor technique, and they rely on consistency to win. There are also 4.0 guys who play primarily singles and are defensive retrievers. These types of players will not step up and smack winners all day long off of a 4.0 woman's weak serve. They may try, but they will erase their winners with errors.

I assume the 4.0 in question isnt a super senior honorary 4.0 who took up tennis when she was 60. If she's not that, she really has no excuse to be serving that slow as a first serve. None.

Where are you getting all this information about how 4.0 women serve? I mean, I know you are pulling the MPH stuff out of your backside, as you have never seen any 4.0 woman serving with a proper radar gun.

But beyond that, what is the basis for your belief that a woman's slow serve to the guy in mixed is suicide and inexcusable? I mean, I have played 8.0 for a few years now, and that is the basis for my opinions. I think you are totally wrong.

[Mike Y]

Also, I'd be ecstatic if my 8.0 Mixed partner's first serve was 50 mph!

[Maui19]

Originally Posted by Mike Y

Also, I'd be ecstatic if my 8.0 Mixed partner's first serve was 50 mph!

Me too! We have a speed radar unit at my club, and it is always a real eye opener.

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

What do you think a 4.5 guy is going to do to a 50 mph first serve?

Hey, I can answer that one, being a 4.5 guy...
Often a 4.5 guy is going to want to really punish a 50 mph serve, and as a result will overhit. I actually prefer returning a nice waist high 70mph serve rather than a low-bouncing 50 mph serve. The slow, low, short serve requires a lot of control to hit a winner off of, since you need to generate your own pace and put enough top on the ball to get it over and keep it in, given that it's low and short. Ok, I don't want to make it sound as if the 50 mph server is a good serve... just saying it's not an automatic loss of point even against a 4.5 guy.

Originally Posted by Mike Y

LOL at 4.0 women having 80 mph serves. If any 4.0 woman has an 80mph serve, then it would be a monster serve. There are some WTA women who have 80 mph first serves. I am an average to good 4.5 male, and my serve tops out at around 90 mph, I'm sure many of my first serves are in the 80s (albeit my serve is the weakest part of my game), so her first serves would be almost as fast as mine. I don't think so.

You're out of touch. These days, 3.0s are serving 120, don't you know.

Originally Posted by Maui19

Me too! We have a speed radar unit at my club, and it is always a real eye opener.

QFT

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by Mike Y

LOL at 4.0 women having 80 mph serves. If any 4.0 woman has an 80mph serve, then it would be a monster serve. There are some WTA women who have 80 mph first serves. I am an average to good 4.5 male, and my serve tops out at around 90 mph, I'm sure many of my first serves are in the 80s (albeit my serve is the weakest part of my game), so her first serves would be almost as fast as mine. I don't think so.

A solid 80 mph serve with spin, control and consistency can very well be enough to play WTA. This type of serve is not at all like a 50 mph serve regardless of spin and placement.

There are 4.5 men who have solid serves like this and can do well in adult league. The point im trying to make is that those extra 30 mph + spin make a world of a difference. A 50 mph tap over vs. 80 mph high spin is not comparable at all.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

If you spend any time over at the Instruction Board at TT, you will see that there are plenty of players who struggle to punish a short ball. When I play 8.0 mixed, I see a lot of 4.0 guys who miss the weak serve of the opposing female. Happens all the time. Generating your own pace gives a lot of players trouble, and 4.0 guys can struggle with this when they know they must get their return past a net player.

Also remember that there is a lot of variety in the playing styles of 4.0 men. There are some 4.0 guys who are pushers with poor technique, and they rely on consistency to win. There are also 4.0 guys who play primarily singles and are defensive retrievers. These types of players will not step up and smack winners all day long off of a 4.0 woman's weak serve. They may try, but they will erase their winners with errors.

Punishing a short ball that happens in a baseline rally is not the same situation as what we're taking about here. What we're talking about here is a 50 mph serve with a negligible amount of spin on it which is probably going to bounce waist height well inside the baseline.

Even 4.0 pushers I know can chop this ball to "start something" not necessarily hit a winner.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Where are you getting all this information about how 4.0 women serve? I mean, I know you are pulling the MPH stuff out of your backside, as you have never seen any 4.0 woman serving with a proper radar gun.

But beyond that, what is the basis for your belief that a woman's slow serve to the guy in mixed is suicide and inexcusable? I mean, I have played 8.0 for a few years now, and that is the basis for my opinions. I think you are totally wrong.

I'm going to discuss the radar gun thing later in the post, but for now

It's apparent that most people on this forum only play social tennis and have never made a play off for anything. How do I know? Because everyone seems to think that people play nice and dont exploit these types of weaknesses in their home games.

If I had to come up with a point I can bet you 100% I would drill this ball DTL and the net person couldnt do anything about it besides turn around and protect themselves. Sure, I might miss, but this is actually my "go to" shot on rally balls that land short in the court.

As I said, this ball has to be low like a slice, or else its just going to sit. I do not see this ball bouncing less than 2 ft high which is what I would consider "low enough" to not be able to immediately punish.

Originally Posted by tennis_ocd

Agreed. There is some gross misconception over serve speeds here. 50 mph from the female in 8.0 is fine if she handles a heavy cross court return. (Even if she can't, some poaching will mix things up and get you some points on the male side to hold.) 50 mph will get the ball deep enough in the box to permit the net person to handle 4.0 forehands. If she can place the 50 mph it verges on becoming a weapon unless the net guy is slow or lacks volley skills.

It's doubles. If a 4.0 returner is putting away relatively deep serves, regardless of serve speed, there is something more flawed with the serving team than the serve.

This ball would be played well inside the baseline even if it manages to catch the back of the line.

The heavy cross court return is really the most neutral shot you can play. There are many other shots I could play on this ball to go on the immediate offense or crack a clean cut winner.

DTL; DTM; cut it shot, slide it wide, lob.

Even a good top spin lob could be a winner here against the net guy. The ball only has to go like 8 ft high too, which is much lower than your normal baseline lob. Even if its not a winner, both players would be at the net while their net player is probably running back to the baseline while the server crosses to get the lob.

I would take 2 up vs. 2 back any day of the week.

[Cindysphinx]

So, in answer to my question about how you have any idea what you are talking about re the serves of 4.0 women, you have no answer?

As OrangePower says, weak serves from women in 8.0 mixed can be difficult for the male returner to exploit consistently.

I will add that my male partner at net has a racket in his hands. If you blast the ball at him, he can reflex volley it.

I do not believe I have a weak serve for my level, nor do I have a cannon. Still, I can count on one hand the number of times male returners have won points by ripping returns at my partner at net. Why is that? Because it is stupid to hit low-percentage shots to the stronger player who is at the net. My male opponents know it is much smarter to hit a strong return crosscourt than to try to target my partner.

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

So, in answer to my question about how you have any idea what you are talking about re the serves of 4.0 women, you have no answer?

If you're talking about the radar guns, I forgot to come back to it. The thing about hand held radar units are that you can literally be measuring anything in the direction you're pointing it at. It's quite common for people to radar the racket... and not the ball. Also, the ball has different speeds, and its quite easy to measure the ball at its slowest point and not its fastest. When they measure ball speed on TV, its off the immediate face of the racket, not after it has bounced off the court, it is a stationary unit, calibrated, and much more "fast" in terms of radar pulses.

So all of you guys who think a hand held radar unit at your "club" is the end all be all of serve speeds, you guys really have no idea how silly you are. I cant believe I had to explain this.

People have radar gunned guard rails going 50 mph before and its quite common to get speeding tickets dismissed in court which were administered by radar because of its inherent inaccuracy.

Aside from that, having experienced a broad range of serves, I can tell you that I can easily approximate the speed of a serve in "blocks" of... -80/80-100/100+ quite easily.

My 4.0 partner and I have played cross court singles as practice. She is serving between 60-80 on her first serves and she isnt built like Sam Stosur or Serena either.

50 mph first serve is pitiful and bottom tier 40 if anything. Bottom tier women in mixed leagues are a weakness.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

As OrangePower says, weak serves from women in 8.0 mixed can be difficult for the male returner to exploit consistently.

By a scrub... who is playing social tennis.

Imagine a 4.5 college player who is playing with a 3.5 high school player. Do you really think that a 50 mph serve is going to fly?

Like I said, you guys lack perspective. I'm not talking about grandpa and grandma playing social 8.0 mixed league. If you get to a play off, you will have very capable players, like a 4.5 senior teaching pro and a 3.5 "older" physical fitness trainer or something.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I will add that my male partner at net has a racket in his hands. If you blast the ball at him, he can reflex volley it.

I do not believe I have a weak serve for my level, nor do I have a cannon. Still, I can count on one hand the number of times male returners have won points by ripping returns at my partner at net. Why is that? Because it is stupid to hit low-percentage shots to the stronger player who is at the net. My male opponents know it is much smarter to hit a strong return crosscourt than to try to target my partner.

In a perfect world the net player always gets the ball back, no matter how hard or low the ball is hit at them. In reality, thats not true.

This serve is going to bounce 3 ft high and ill contact it half way between the baseline and the service box. At this range the net player can only cover a small amount of the court. If he covers line, I can take sharp angle wide, cut it short, or pound it down the center and set up for a put away volley. If he plays more to the middle, I always have DTL for a clean cut winner because he is not going to be able to get a racket on it, period.

Honestly, the best place for the net player to stand with this type of serve is at the baseline because that cuts down my options. If hes at the baseline, I have no DTL or lob or DTM. I only have droppers, way out wides, or generic returns.

[LeeD]

Instead of focusing on gender, why not work against weaknesses of the opposiing team?

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Instead of focusing on gender, why not work against weaknesses of the opposiing team?

We're talking about a 4.0 mixed combo with a female with a 50 mph first serve. It was what the OP said when describing his partner. I'm not woman-hating, it's actually on topic haha.

[LeeD]

Mindset...
Why focus so much on holding serve? Realistically, tis easier for you guys to break serves, than to hold the woman's serve.

[Maui19]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

So all of you guys who think a hand held radar unit at your "club" is the end all be all of serve speeds, you guys really have no idea how silly you are. I cant believe I had to explain this.

If you are talking about me, since you put "club" in quotes, it is not a hand held unit. I can't believe I had to explain this.

I don't want to be mean or confrontational, but you write some of the most delusional posts I have seen on any forum anywhere on Earth. You are apparently a 3.0 (3.5?), but seem to be able to execute the shots of a 5.0.

You appear to be the definition of Dunning–Kruger effect, which essentially states:

Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:
1) tend to overestimate their own level of skill
2) fail to recognize genuine skill in others
3) fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy
4) recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they are exposed to training for that skill

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by Maui19

If you are talking about me, since you put "club" in quotes, it is not a hand held unit. I can't believe I had to explain this.

I don't want to be mean or confrontational, but you write some of the most delusional posts I have seen on any forum anywhere on Earth. You are apparently a 3.0 (3.5?), but seem to be able to execute the shots of a 5.0.

You appear to be the definition of Dunning–Kruger effect, which essentially states:

Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:
1) tend to overestimate their own level of skill
2) fail to recognize genuine skill in others
3) fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy
4) recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they are exposed to training for that skill

Extremely off topic, but ill respond.

A 5.0 shot with other 3.0 elements means the person is a 3.0, simple. People seem to think that your tennis "game" and therefore "NTRP rating" should be based off your best feature, or shots. This is wrong.

Your NTRP is based off your average, or better yet, based off your worst. For example, a 4.0 with absolutely no backhand, overheads, or volleys, but serves 200 mph will lose every single match. A 200 mph serve would be like... NTRP 10.0, or something.

People on this forum can watch a video of a guy hitting 3 forehands in 240p from the side and tell that the guy is obviously a 7.0, THAT is silly to me.

As for the radar unit...

A handheld unit, or a $50 piece of plastic that you sit on the floor is practically the same thing. Where do you put it? Center court? Angled, facing the server? On the baseline? Slightly behind it?

How do you know where the ball is even being measured?

If that radar unit measures the ball after it hits the court, the MPH can be off by like 20. I watched a video of A-Rod hitting serves on the David Letterman show and he was clocked at 86. R.O.F.L

Measuring serve speeds by the FPS method through video is going to be the most accurate thing a person can use aside from a really expensive radar unit.

If you have the unit at the net, or on the opposite side of the net with a floor radar unit, you are doing it WRONG.

Serve speeds should be measured at contact with the ball.

[Maui19]

NTRP, after any self-rating period, is based entirely on your performance against other players. The computer doesn't care what kind of shots you can hit, or what kind of strategy you employ, it only cares about how many games you win, and against whom you win them.

Seriously, you should read up on Dunning-Kruger effect.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Maui19

II don't want to be mean or confrontational, but you write some of the most delusional posts I have seen on any forum anywhere on Earth. You are apparently a 3.0 (3.5?), but seem to be able to execute the shots of a 5.0.

I honestly don't even respond anymore because I can't tell if he is serious or if he is trying to be the parody of a 3.0 player who thinks he hits 110. He just has so many levels of delusion that I would htink it has to be a pretty well excecuted satire but then again there are some people who just truly do not get it. I mean seriously:

He is a 3.0 player that hits 110 out wide.
Pro Doubles teams serve out wide most of the time
No 4.0 woman could possibly have a serve that doesn't go above 50 MPH
That any 4.0 player automatically puts the ball away every time against any 50mph server

Any one of these could be written off as someone who is just clueless- but for someone to hold all of these views simultaneously is seriously bordering on satire.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Maui19

I don't want to be mean or confrontational, but you write some of the most delusional posts I have seen on any forum anywhere on Earth. You are apparently a 3.0 (3.5?), but seem to be able to execute the shots of a 5.0.

Well I don't know, N-Police sounds like he knows his stuff, I've seen much more delusional posts than his. I would rank his posts, on the Al Gore Internet Delusional Scale, at about a 3.5. He has a way to go, but if he sticks around here long enough, I'm sure he'll pick up enough tips to reach the 4.0 level of delusion in short order--he may need to become a stockbroker first though.

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by tennis tom

Well I don't know, N-Police sounds like he knows his stuff, I've seen much more delusional posts than his. I would rank his posts, on the Al Gore Internet Delusional Scale, at about a 3.5. He has a way to go, but if he sticks around here long enough, I'm sure he'll pick up enough tips to reach the 4.0 level of delusion in short order--he may need to become a stockbroker first though.

It just seems silly to me how I cant ever seem to know what im talking about. I'm one of the very few people that I know who seem to want to move up levels in NTRP.

One of the most famous people on this site "Cindy" is a 4.0 B, but if you look at her record, she has like all losses... LOL... even playing as a 3.5, but, she knows what shes talking about apparently.

I have a feeling this represents most of the people here, people who play league, but want to move down, or even people who dont play league at all.

I admit that im not a 3.0 anymore. I dont even think im a 3.5. My only real loss at 3.5 was in first singles against the team who went to sectionals, but since it was a "social" team, I won my minimum 3 (5 wins total) and only tried to win that one time just to prove to myself that I was better knowing that he was top tier 3.5. The guy that I lost to only plays 3.5 and 8.0... and hes a self rate, and this is his first season of USTA.

I can play singles against 4.0 "older" players and absolutely punish them. I only have trouble with the under 30 4.0 crowd, or 4.5 "older" players.

In light of all of this... I dont know what im talking about, because a 3.0 cant possibly be any good at all.