Mixed Doubles Strats? - Page 3

Mike Y · 09-13-2012, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

It just seems silly to me how I cant ever seem to know what im talking about. I'm one of the very few people that I know who seem to want to move up levels in NTRP.

One of the most famous people on this site "Cindy" is a 4.0 B, but if you look at her record, she has like all losses... LOL... even playing as a 3.5, but, she knows what shes talking about apparently.

I have a feeling this represents most of the people here, people who play league, but want to move down, or even people who dont play league at all.

I admit that im not a 3.0 anymore. I dont even think im a 3.5. My only real loss at 3.5 was in first singles against the team who went to sectionals, but since it was a "social" team, I won my minimum 3 (5 wins total) and only tried to win that one time just to prove to myself that I was better knowing that he was top tier 3.5. The guy that I lost to only plays 3.5 and 8.0... and hes a self rate, and this is his first season of USTA.

I can play singles against 4.0 "older" players and absolutely punish them. I only have trouble with the under 30 4.0 crowd, or 4.5 "older" players.

In light of all of this... I dont know what im talking about, because a 3.0 cant possibly be any good at all.

Why do you think that Cindy has all losses? I believe I read that she went to nationals.

Have you played actual complete matches against these "older" 4.0 players? I ask because if you are a relatively new player who "wails" on the ball like you say, those older players are generally much harder to beat than the younger 4.0 players. The older ones will force you into errors and make you hit balls you don't want to hit. The younger ones make errors and are generally easier to play.

tennis tom · 09-13-2012, 08:22 AM

N-Police, let me cut to the chase because I have to get down to the hot-tub and the pool to prepare for my 11:30 rec/practice match. The only way you'll find out where you stand in the competitive tennis world is entering Senior Age Group tournaments where you are competing on a level playing field with gents who have been suffering the pressures of gravity on the planet for about the same amount of time as you have. All this NTRP number stuff is hot stove league, Monday morning quarterbacking and some heartless and soulless computer AlGorerhytm making judgments about you. Play in your age group and you will immediately and objectively discover what your tennis mettle is made of and play with players who know the rules and rarely cheat.

G'luck

Cindysphinx · 09-13-2012, 08:36 AM

NTRPPolice,

Let me educate you quickly about my tennis life.

As you say, I'm a 4.0B. Last year, I was a 3.5. I was bumped up for obvious reasons: Strong play at 3.5, including 6-0 at senior 3.5 nationals and 13-0 in 3.5 adult regular season and districts. So no, I didn't have mostly losses at 3.5.

This first year at 4.0 has been rougher, but that's how it goes when you get bumped up. I am working on my game, and things are getting better. I win some, but I need to improve my groundstrokes and volleys.

The reason I feel the need to hammer you is that you pull all kinds of stuff out of your backside. I have played against a large number of 4.0 women. You, apparently, know *one* 4.0 woman. Yet you claim you know that a 4.0 woman with a weak serve isn't a real 4.0 woman, or is pathetic, or is an octogenarian.

I am here to tell you that you are wrong about that.

Honestly, you probably should stick to what you know. You are a 3.0C. Perhaps you are really more like a 3.5. That's fine, nothing wrong with that.

But when you then pop off about what 4.0s and 4.5s can do . . . Sorry, I just don't think you have any idea based on personal experience in competitive matches.

spot · 09-13-2012, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

It just seems silly to me how I cant ever seem to know what im talking about.

Its not that you can't know what you are talking about, its that you don't know what you are talking about and you prove this over and over.

You talk about what a 4.0 person would do to a 50 MPH serve and you are a 3.0 rated talking about your fantasies of what your strokes will be like when you are a 4.0 player. It simply has nothing to do with reality. You simply haven't played against many 4.0 women to have any clue what you are talking about.

Many people when they were 3.0 thought that higher rated people don't realize how good 3.0 people actually are. Then when you get to be a 3.5 and you realize that you sucked. Then you think that 4.0 people don't realize how good 3.5 players are. Then you move up and look back and realize you sucked. Thankfully I get to play wtih a lot of former D1 players so I don't have any illusions of grandeur- I accept that I suck in the bigger scheme of things even though I have a very good league record and my teams are highly successful.

As I have said to you before- I think at some point once you have more experience playing you will look back at these threads and see how ridiculous you sound and get a good laugh out of it just like all of us are getting a good laugh right now when you post.

spot · 09-13-2012, 08:55 AM

On the serve thing you are just making a common mistake. Virtually everyone who starts playing tennis vastly overestimates the speed of people's serve. They think that a 100mph serve is good and that 50 is a lollipop that may go 15 feet in the air. It is just disconnected from reality. The funny thing is that you actually tried to talk down to people who use a radar gun to measure serve instead of your way of completely guessing which is where you are veering into that satire territory again.

tennis_ocd · 09-13-2012, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

This ball would be played well inside the baseline even if it manages to catch the back of the line.

The heavy cross court return is really the most neutral shot you can play. There are many other shots I could play on this ball to go on the immediate offense or crack a clean cut winner.

DTL; DTM; cut it shot, slide it wide, lob.

Even a good top spin lob could be a winner here against the net guy. The ball only has to go like 8 ft high too, which is much lower than your normal baseline lob. Even if its not a winner, both players would be at the net while their net player is probably running back to the baseline while the server crosses to get the lob.

A 50 mph serve that you let bounce to 3 ft is going to be sufficiently back off the net. If a returner is cracking clean winners against a pair of 4.0's something is wrong with their game; not the serve.

More importantly, a team whose strategy is to even think of hitting winners on service returns, is seriously flawed. It's poor percentage double's tennis.

corbind · 09-13-2012, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spot

He just has so many levels of delusion that I would htink it has to be a pretty well excecuted satire but then again there are some people who just truly do not get it. I mean seriously:

Pro Doubles teams serve out wide most of the time

I remember that assertion well and simply cannot take someone seriously with such a glaring falsehood.

NTRPolice · 09-13-2012, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

NTRPPolice,

Let me educate you quickly about my tennis life.

As you say, I'm a 4.0B. Last year, I was a 3.5. I was bumped up for obvious reasons: Strong play at 3.5, including 6-0 at senior 3.5 nationals and 13-0 in 3.5 adult regular season and districts. So no, I didn't have mostly losses at 3.5.

This first year at 4.0 has been rougher, but that's how it goes when you get bumped up. I am working on my game, and things are getting better. I win some, but I need to improve my groundstrokes and volleys.

The reason I feel the need to hammer you is that you pull all kinds of stuff out of your backside. I have played against a large number of 4.0 women. You, apparently, know *one* 4.0 woman. Yet you claim you know that a 4.0 woman with a weak serve isn't a real 4.0 woman, or is pathetic, or is an octogenarian.

I am here to tell you that you are wrong about that.

Honestly, you probably should stick to what you know. You are a 3.0C. Perhaps you are really more like a 3.5. That's fine, nothing wrong with that.

But when you then pop off about what 4.0s and 4.5s can do . . . Sorry, I just don't think you have any idea based on personal experience in competitive matches.

I only looked at your 2012 record for which you have nothing but losses except for one default win. You played only 2D and 3D.

Who said I only know one 4.0 woman? I just talk about her the most because shes my partner for 7.0, I actually know many people in the tennis community here, many of which are 3.5 and 4.0. I have personal friends who play college (now) and are 4.5's and 5.0. I also know some 2.5's. I know a lot of people. I play tennis 4-6 days a week at all different levels, but my league ranges are limited due to NTRP restrictions. I'm actually excited to play 8.0 next year, heh. I might even skip "C" league and play "B" instead too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spot

You talk about what a 4.0 person would do to a 50 MPH serve and you are a 3.0 rated talking about your fantasies of what your strokes will be like when you are a 4.0 player. It simply has nothing to do with reality. You simply haven't played against many 4.0 women to have any clue what you are talking about.

Many people when they were 3.0 thought that higher rated people don't realize how good 3.0 people actually are. Then when you get to be a 3.5 and you realize that you sucked. Then you think that 4.0 people don't realize how good 3.5 players are. Then you move up and look back and realize you sucked. Thankfully I get to play wtih a lot of former D1 players so I don't have any illusions of grandeur- I accept that I suck in the bigger scheme of things even though I have a very good league record and my teams are highly successful.

As I have said to you before- I think at some point once you have more experience playing you will look back at these threads and see how ridiculous you sound and get a good laugh out of it just like all of us are getting a good laugh right now when you post.

On the serve thing you are just making a common mistake. Virtually everyone who starts playing tennis vastly overestimates the speed of people's serve. They think that a 100mph serve is good and that 50 is a lollipop that may go 15 feet in the air. It is just disconnected from reality. The funny thing is that you actually tried to talk down to people who use a radar gun to measure serve instead of your way of completely guessing which is where you are veering into that satire territory again.

You and many other people think im delusional which is fine, but you guys never address my counter points, but instead, just personally attack.

Talk down to those people? You guys are the ones telling me I dont know what im talking about regarding serve speed because your radar gun at your club tells you so.

I pointed out that a improperly used radar guns measurement of a tennis ball can be off 20 mph or more. If you set up the radar unit wrong, it can make a 120 mph serve appear 80 mph if its measuring the racket instead of the ball. If the measurement of the ball is taken after the bounce a 120 mph serve would then be going less than 100. Then, all of a sudden, you guys think that this 120 mph serve is going only 80... that's my point.

-Serves on TV are measured as they come off the racket face. Fact.
-If you set up your radar floor unit at the net or at the opposite baseline, that's wrong because its not going to be measuring the ball as soon as it leaves the face.
-If you're using a handheld unit, you can be measuring the racket instead of the ball.

I have measured my second serves using the FPS method and they are going between 65-85 MPH. I dont have any footage of my first serve (as ive said) but 85 is not me flattening out the serve at all. Those are all quality second serves with large amounts of spin.

Call BS all you want, but I definitely know what im talking about. You guys will see when I make my 3.0 YER video because im definitely going to put some flat ones in there for all you arm chair doubters.

spot · 09-13-2012, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Call BS all you want, but I definitely know what im talking about

You definitely THINK that you know what you are talking about. (Though I still cant' discount satire) But you have no reason to think you are correct. You think your first serve is 110 because when you measured your serve it averaged 70? Don't you see how ridiculous you sound when you say crazy stuff like that.

If you thought you hit 110 because you used the video to determine you are hitting 110 thats fine. If you hit 110 because you asked your coach and you thought you were hitting 110 then thats fine. If you thought you hit 110 because you know someone else who has been verified at 110 and you believe your serve is just as strong then maybe its possible. INstead you are a 3.0 player who thinks you hit 110 because you are flat guessing. That makes you pretty much the definition delusional.

You stated with authority that pro doubles teams serve out wide most of the time. I posted several videos showing you how ridiculous that was. That means that you THOUGHT you were right but were again delusional and we all got a good laugh out of it.

NTRPolice · 09-13-2012, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spot

You definitely THINK that you know what you are talking about. (Though I still cant' discount satire) But you have no reason to think you are correct. You think your first serve is 110 because when you measured your serve it averaged 70? Don't you see how ridiculous you sound when you say crazy stuff like that.

If you thought you hit 110 because you used the video to determine you are hitting 110 thats fine. If you hit 110 because you asked your coach and you thought you were hitting 110 then thats fine. If you thought you hit 110 because you know someone else who has been verified at 110 and you believe your serve is just as strong then maybe its possible. INstead you are a 3.0 player who thinks you hit 110 because you are flat guessing. That makes you pretty much the definition delusional.

You stated with authority that pro doubles teams serve out wide most of the time. I posted several videos showing you how ridiculous that was. That means that you THOUGHT you were right but were again delusional and we all got a good laugh out of it.

I can see why you think im ridiculous but that doesnt make you right. I'm just having a great time here listening to all of you say that its so impossible that im as good or as capable as I say I am.

If you cannot see the relation to serving 80 mph out wide and flattening out the face and hitting 110 out the middle that tells me you guys dont know what you're talking about. To serve a quality second serve you have to have high racket head speed and great control of the face. If I have that, what makes you so sure that I cant manipulate the face to flatten out the ball and put mostly pace on it instead of spin? That is what I find silly.

I am guessing, sure, but not all guesses are created equal.

About the serving out wide in doubles, there are many counter examples, I just gave up in that thread. Here is a video, where 4 righties are playing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caqcWkkfwqw

If you notice, in the opening games, "someone" keeps trying to serve down the middle and that ball keeps getting punished DTL on BOTH SIDES. If you look later on in the video... he starts serving out wide instead.

We can post videos back and forth all day...

You seem to happy to have "won" that argument because you keep clinging to it. If you want to believe that you won, you won. I think that makes YOU delusional.

Anyway, I think im done with this thread, as its gone way off topic.

spot · 09-13-2012, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

About the serving out wide in doubles, there are many counter examples, I just gave up in that thread. Here is a video, where 4 righties are playing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caqcWkkfwqw

Holy crap thats funny. To try and prove your point you not only had to try and find a low angle, amateur, handheld videocamera of players who aren't even good doubles players and where its tough to see where the ball was even served. But even in the video that you HAND PICKED there are still significantly more serves down the middle than there out wide.

That is pretty much the definition of delusional. This is why everyone gets a good laugh out of it when you post.

beernutz · 09-13-2012, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spot

Holy crap thats funny. To try and prove your point you not only had to try and find a low angle, amateur, handheld videocamera of players who aren't even good doubles players and where its tough to see where the ball was even served. But even in the video that you HAND PICKED there are still significantly more serves down the middle than there out wide.

That is pretty much the definition of delusional. This is why everyone gets a good laugh out of it when you post.

He's been in my Ignore file for a while so I don't get to laugh at him until someone else quotes him. I really thought JakeMcClain had set the bar pretty high in the contest for most delusional TW Adult forum poster (the General Pro Player forum is a whole different stratosphere of delusional) but NTRP blows by him like a Porsche past a Yugo.

Cindysphinx · 09-13-2012, 12:45 PM

NTRPPolice,

Are you sure you have the right Cindysphinx?

My 2012 league record is about 21-26. I think that is decent for the year after a bump up. I played 7.5 combo, 8.0 mixed, 4.0 ladies. 21 of these matches were at 1D position. I had no default wins.

It's factual inaccuracies like this that confirm that you will say the first thing that pops into your head.

NTRPPolice:

Quote:

Who said I only know one 4.0 woman? I just talk about her the most because shes my partner for 7.0, I actually know many people in the tennis community here, many of which are 3.5 and 4.0. I have personal friends who play college (now) and are 4.5's and 5.0. I also know some 2.5's. I know a lot of people. I play tennis 4-6 days a week at all different levels, but my league ranges are limited due to NTRP restrictions. I'm actually excited to play 8.0 next year, heh. I might even skip "C" league and play "B" instead too.

So I said you have playing experience with exactly one 4.0 woman, and this is your reply?

Dude. I do not have to wait for 2013 to play 8.0 mixed. I do not base my remarks on the serving prowess of 4.0 women or the ability of 4.0 men to hit winners off of weak serves off of playing *7.0 mixed.*

Check back with us when you have actually played 8.0 mixed with and against more than one 4.0 woman. Right now, you have as much knowledge of 8.0 mixed as I have of 9.0 mixed -- none.

OrangePower · 09-13-2012, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

You and many other people think im delusional which is fine, but you guys never address my counter points, but instead, just personally attack.

I'm one of those who thinks you're delusional, but I've never meant to attack you personally. If I have, I apologize.

I think you're delusional because you refuse to believe that anyone who disagrees with you knows anything, despite the fact that many people here have been playing for much longer and with more success than you. You just dig yourself deeper and deeper by coming up with increasingly ridiculous counters, rather than accepting that maybe you're wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

I have measured my second serves using the FPS method and they are going between 65-85 MPH. I dont have any footage of my first serve (as ive said) but 85 is not me flattening out the serve at all. Those are all quality second serves with large amounts of spin.

You've tried to discredit those that have actually measured serve speeds using radar guns by claiming that it's not comparable to how speeds are measured for pros.

Ok, here are some speeds from an actual pro match, from this year's French Open:
http://www.rolandgarros.com/en_FR/sc...11/1303ms.html

Gilles Simon has been top 20 for several years, so it's safe to say he is an ok player. His average 1st is 176kmh / 109mph. His average 2nd is 133kmh / 83mph. I admit this is on the slower side for pros, but the man has been pretty successful.

So when you claim you can hit your 2nd at 85mph (or even an average of 75mph), keep in mind that you are saying your 2nd is almost at the level of Simon's. Likewise, when you claim a 110 1st, you're saying your good 1st serves are the same as Simon's ave 1st.

Simon is a long-time pro, a gifted, in-shape athlete, and has had excellent coaching in technique and strength from a very young age.

Can you say all the same for yourself?

The thing is, you just don't seem to realize how good (and rare) it is to be able to serve around 110 1st / 85 2nd on a consistent basis. And you refuse to listen to anyone who tries to tell you that.

kylebarendrick · 09-13-2012, 02:43 PM

What have I learned in this thread? Those of us that have played 8.0 mixed clearly have no idea what 4.0 women can do with a serve or how the opposing men can return them. None of us have played anything other than hit and giggle tennis. Size doesn't matter.

Do I have that about right?

Cindysphinx · 09-13-2012, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

Power is where its at for 4.0 and 8.0 combos.

Nah. I know very few 4.0 women who win through power. They win by putting their opponents in awkward positions to tease out errors and making them hit the ball up for put-away opportunities. They also win by coming to net relentlessly and exploiting the angles available to them. And I know a few 4.0 men and women who win way more than I do just by playing defensively and getting everything back and being crafty.

Quote:

Somewhere between 3.5 and 4.0 there is an area where people no longer make mistakes and you're required to hit winners to end points.

That is simply not true. 3.5/4.0 players of both genders make a sick number of mistakes.

Every now and then I watch my 4.0 ladies compete in doubles. I come away shaking my head every time. It seems rare that the ball goes over the net three times in a rally. Players botch easy returns. They DF. They miss easy sitters. What they rarely do is hit screaming winners. Way, way more points end with an UE than a winner in 4.0 doubles.

Quote:

In doubles, this is especially evident. If I see a player who "just gets it back into play" you can bet im going to have a field day at net. The probably wont pass me and even if they do its probably not going to be a winner. If this type of player is spotted (you can tell in the warmup) I would tell my my partner to stay 1up 1back permanently and whoever is at net makes most of the points. No point in bringing both players up because there is going to be a lot of moonballing.

Two at net wins more at 4.0 doubles than 1up 1back. If the opponents are pushers or are defensive, you will do much better having both players at net in a staggered formation, ready to hit their overheads and swing volleys.

So if your approach volleys could use some polishing, you probably should get to work on them. You will definitely need them at 4.0.

jaybear1909 · 09-13-2012, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

I only looked at your 2012 record for which you have nothing but losses except for one default win. You played only 2D and 3D.

Who said I only know one 4.0 woman? I just talk about her the most because shes my partner for 7.0, I actually know many people in the tennis community here, many of which are 3.5 and 4.0. I have personal friends who play college (now) and are 4.5's and 5.0. I also know some 2.5's. I know a lot of people. I play tennis 4-6 days a week at all different levels, but my league ranges are limited due to NTRP restrictions.
I'm actually excited to play 8.0 next year, heh. I might even skip "C" league and play "B" instead too.

You and many other people think im delusional which is fine, but you guys never address my counter points, but instead, just personally attack.

Talk down to those people? You guys are the ones telling me I dont know what im talking about regarding serve speed because your radar gun at your club tells you so.

I pointed out that a improperly used radar guns measurement of a tennis ball can be off 20 mph or more. If you set up the radar unit wrong, it can make a 120 mph serve appear 80 mph if its measuring the racket instead of the ball. If the measurement of the ball is taken after the bounce a 120 mph serve would then be going less than 100. Then, all of a sudden, you guys think that this 120 mph serve is going only 80... that's my point.

-Serves on TV are measured as they come off the racket face. Fact.
-If you set up your radar floor unit at the net or at the opposite baseline, that's wrong because its not going to be measuring the ball as soon as it leaves the face.
-If you're using a handheld unit, you can be measuring the racket instead of the ball.

I have measured my second serves using the FPS method and they are going between 65-85 MPH. I dont have any footage of my first serve (as ive said) but 85 is not me flattening out the serve at all. Those are all quality second serves with large amounts of spin.

Call BS all you want, but I definitely know what im talking about. You guys will see when I make my 3.0 YER video because im definitely going to put some flat ones in there for all you arm chair doubters.

I've decided I can no longer take anything you say seriously. You're speaking purely from theory and do not actually have any experience in the matter. On paper, maybe you're right. But life isn't paper.

chatt_town · 09-13-2012, 06:44 PM

I don't know about this dude. I venture to say that "most" 4.0 men consitantly hit a 40 to 50 first serve...if that when getting it in on a regular basis. I doubt it's much faster than that. A woman only needs to place and get her first serve in to keep the man from being blown off the net. I have won my fair share of 8.0 mixed matches as well as a-1 and a-2 and I know for a fact that my serve is pushing upper 30's if the truth be told. It's about your hands at the net that will make the difference. I know you will say what you would do to it but trust me...in about 6 years or so playing 4.0 there have been plenty that have tried what you think you will do with the serves and I consistently volley it back to your baseline while you are still standing on the baseline thinking you've hit a winner. So the pace of a serve in mixed doubles is not that important...in some cases it can hurt. Many women can get back a fast serve much easier than a spin serve if it isn't placed well. They just need to get their raquet on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

The problem is that 50 MPH is just too slow. We're also talking 8.0 and potentially 9.0 here, not 7.0 or 6.5. In 8.0, you may go up against a 3.5 girl and a 4.5 guy. What do you think a 4.5 guy is going to do to a 50 mph first serve? What do you think a 5.0 guy is going to do to that serve?

A 50 mph serve can be hit with a forehand no matter where it lands in the box so you cant realistically expect them to play a backhand. Also, at this average level of 4.0, everyone should have a topspin backhand or a "powerful slice" at the least.

A 50 mph serve wont have any movement on it at all. The racket head speed is just too low to put any useful amount of spin on it. The ball wont have any kick unless it clears like 3x the height of the net... which isnt exactly a high percentage serve.

A 4.0 should have two serves already, or one very solid serve they can use twice. If she was playing 7.0 senior+ she can get away with it. In the 8.0 arena that is a huge risk. Her first serve should be going at least 70 (flat) and I know its possible even for a senior lady to hit that. 70+ with spin as a 4.0 girl would be a great serve, but should be able to hit 70 flat at least for a first.

I'm just trying to put this into perspective. 8.0 and doubles. 50 MPH. Sounds dangerous.

You projecting?

50 mph as a first serve is extremely slow especially for MIXED DOUBLES at the 8.0 level or higher.

Not a 4.0 mixed doubles player who is trying to play 8.0.

Say w/e you want about my claims, but I assure you, when I post my YER benchmark video ill be sure to put some serves in there for all you haters. You guys just cant seem to get over the fact that someone who is lower NTRP can possibly be better than you or know what they're talking about. I should have just self rated 4.5 because my serve becomes much faster apparently.

NTRPolice · 09-14-2012, 07:31 AM

I know I said I wasnt going to post in this thread anymore, but I found this video and id like you all to take a look at it.

Here, what would apparently be a "world class 3.5 player" is serving 75-ish mph. For the sake of argument, lets assume that he cant serve any faster, and that his serve can only go slower the second time around.

Now, that serve is certainly not "coming". Are you still so sure that most of the 4.0 women you know are serving 25-35 mph less than what you see here on their first serves? I can see a 50 mph second, but a 50 mph FIRST?

I must apparently know only world class players then, because 25 mph less than what is shown in that video as a first serve is definitely slower than any of the 4.0+ girls that I know.

But, im just guessing, and im only measuring with my eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmC8HIC44o

Maui19 · 09-14-2012, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

I know I said I wasnt going to post in this thread anymore, but I found this video and id like you all to take a look at it.

Here, what would apparently be a "world class 3.5 player" is serving 75-ish mph. For the sake of argument, lets assume that he cant serve any faster, and that his serve can only go slower the second time around.

Now, that serve is certainly not "coming". Are you still so sure that most of the 4.0 women you know are serving 25-35 mph less than what you see here on their first serves? I can see a 50 mph second, but a 50 mph FIRST?

I must apparently know only world class players then, because 25 mph less than what is shown in that video as a first serve is definitely slower than any of the 4.0+ girls that I know.

But, im just guessing, and im only measuring with my eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmC8HIC44o

I think it is really hard to tell how fast someone is serving on video (or TV for that matter). I recently saw a former ATP pro serving in a match. He has a legitimate mid-120s first serve. Viewing this in person, I couldn't believe how fast his serve was. It looked waaaaay faster than Isner or Roddick look on TV. This was a real eye opener for me. Then I got a look at serves with a ball speed radar, and even the "hard" serves I saw were ridiculously slow.

So I think the bottom line is that it is very hard to judge serve speeds unless you have seen a lot of measured speeds in person. JMHO.

09-13-2012, 08:22 AM	#42
tennis tom Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,793	N-Police, let me cut to the chase because I have to get down to the hot-tub and the pool to prepare for my 11:30 rec/practice match. The only way you'll find out where you stand in the competitive tennis world is entering Senior Age Group tournaments where you are competing on a level playing field with gents who have been suffering the pressures of gravity on the planet for about the same amount of time as you have. All this NTRP number stuff is hot stove league, Monday morning quarterbacking and some heartless and soulless computer AlGorerhytm making judgments about you. Play in your age group and you will immediately and objectively discover what your tennis mettle is made of and play with players who know the rules and rarely cheat. G'luck __________________ "...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox

09-13-2012, 08:36 AM	#43
Cindysphinx G.O.A.T. Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 14,084	NTRPPolice, Let me educate you quickly about my tennis life. As you say, I'm a 4.0B. Last year, I was a 3.5. I was bumped up for obvious reasons: Strong play at 3.5, including 6-0 at senior 3.5 nationals and 13-0 in 3.5 adult regular season and districts. So no, I didn't have mostly losses at 3.5. This first year at 4.0 has been rougher, but that's how it goes when you get bumped up. I am working on my game, and things are getting better. I win some, but I need to improve my groundstrokes and volleys. The reason I feel the need to hammer you is that you pull all kinds of stuff out of your backside. I have played against a large number of 4.0 women. You, apparently, know one 4.0 woman. Yet you claim you know that a 4.0 woman with a weak serve isn't a real 4.0 woman, or is pathetic, or is an octogenarian. I am here to tell you that you are wrong about that. Honestly, you probably should stick to what you know. You are a 3.0C. Perhaps you are really more like a 3.5. That's fine, nothing wrong with that. But when you then pop off about what 4.0s and 4.5s can do . . . Sorry, I just don't think you have any idea based on personal experience in competitive matches. __________________ -- Random Error Generator, Version 4.0 -- Master Moonballer

09-13-2012, 08:55 AM	#45
spot Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,170	On the serve thing you are just making a common mistake. Virtually everyone who starts playing tennis vastly overestimates the speed of people's serve. They think that a 100mph serve is good and that 50 is a lollipop that may go 15 feet in the air. It is just disconnected from reality. The funny thing is that you actually tried to talk down to people who use a radar gun to measure serve instead of your way of completely guessing which is where you are veering into that satire territory again. Last edited by spot : 09-13-2012 at 09:01 AM.

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