This is the real GOAT

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

I think Emmo beat Laver in the U.S. Nationals that year too.

Yes, he did. Emerson beat Laver 7-5, 6-3, 6-2 in the 1961 US Championships final.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Yes, he did. Emerson beat Laver 7-5, 6-3, 6-2 in the 1961 US Championships final.

And Emmo was the big man in the Davis Cup final, winning three matches.
I guess PC1 would give the 1961 number one spot to Emmo.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

And Emmo was the big man in the Davis Cup final, winning three matches.
I guess PC1 would give the 1961 number one spot to Emmo.

I don't know how pc1 will decide. I rank Laver and Emerson equal No. 1 for 1961.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

And Emmo was the big man in the Davis Cup final, winning three matches.
I guess PC1 would give the 1961 number one spot to Emmo.

Don't answer for me. I did NOT write that.

Incidentally was Hoad ever dominant in any year outside of the amateurs? Give me his record in his most dominant year.
Did he ever had any year like Tilden in his best years or let's say McEnroe in 1984? How about Connors in 1974?

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by pc1

Don't answer for me. I did NOT write that.

Incidentally was Hoad ever dominant in any year outside of the amateurs? Give me his record in his most dominant year.
Did he ever had any year like Tilden in his best years or let's say McEnroe in 1984? How about Connors in 1974?

Thank you for the interesting question.
No, Hoad never, as an amateur or pro, dominated a year like Tilden did in the early twenties, when there was no real competition.
I would suggest that Hoad's year in 1959 was superior to any other year by another player, winning two pro majors and a head to head with Gonzales, including the overall Ampol world championship against a tougher field than McEnroe or Connors faced. The strength of the field was unparalleled.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Thank you for the interesting question.
No, Hoad never, as an amateur or pro, dominated a year like Tilden did in the early twenties, when there was no real competition.
I would suggest that Hoad's year in 1959 was superior to any other year by another player, winning two pro majors and a head to head with Gonzales, including the overall Ampol world championship against a tougher field than McEnroe or Connors faced. The strength of the field was unparalleled.

Interesting you wrote that.

Let's look at 1959 from Joe's book. These are the tournaments Hoad entered.

Victorian Pro Champs
Hoad beat Trabert after a bye.
Loss to Gonzalez next round.
Loss to Segura for third place

Queensland Pro Champs
Hoad beat Cooper in first round
Loss to Trabert in the next round.
Gonzalez beat Hoad for third place

Western Australian Pro Champs
Impressive win.
Hoad beat Segura, Rosewall and Cooper to win the tournament

NSW Pro Champs
Hoad beat Anderson in the quarters after a bye
Loss to Gonzalez in the next round.
Rosewall beat Hoad for third place

South Australian Pro Champs
Hoad beat Rose, Trabert and Rosewall to win the tournament

World Pro Champs also US Pro
Hoad beat Riggs in quarters after bye
Hoad beat Segura
Hoad lost to Gonzalez in straights

Masters Round Robin
Gonzalez and Hoad finished with identical w-l if 5-1 but Gonzalez won the tournament because he defeated Hoad

O'Keefe Pro Champs
Hoad beat Rose in the first round
Sedgman beat Hoad in semi
Gonzalez won the tournament by beating Sedgman

Tournament of Champions
Impressive win by Hoad in defeating Anderson, Rosewall and Gonzalez to win the tournament

Hoad played a tour which according to McCauley was won by Trabert. Rosewall and Sedgman also played.

French Pro Champs
Hoad beat Molloy in the first round easily
Hoad beat Rose in the quarters
Hoad lost to Sedgman in four sets in the semi.
Trabert won the tournament over Sedgman
Hoad beat Rosewall for third

London Pro Indoor Champs at Wembley
Hoad beat Horn-first round
Hoad lost to Segura in the quarters
Hoad beat Rose for fifth

Paris Round Robin
Hoad finished with a 1-2 record with Sedgman, Rosewall and Trabert participating. Sedgman won the tournament with a 3-0 record with Rosewall second at 2-1.


South Australian Round Robin
Hoad won with a 3-0 record Sedgman 2-1 Gonzalez 1-2 and Hartwig 0-3

NSW Pro Champs
Hoad beat Rose in the first round
Hoad beat Anderson in the Semi
Hoad lost to Gonzalez in the final in straight sets

Queensland Pro Champs
Hoad beat Cooper in the first round
Rosewall beat Hoad in the semi
Rosewall beat Gonzalez in the final

Judge for yourself if 1959 is dominant.

Yes I didn't include the tour but you already know the record there which is 42-20 won-lost with Gonzalez, Anderson and Cooper. Gonzalez finished 47-15 but lost his head to head 13-15 to Hoad.

Incidentally which two Pro Majors did he win?

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by pc1

Interesting you wrote that.

Let's look at 1959 from Joe's book.

Victorian Pro Champs
Hoad beat Trabert after a bye.
Loss to Gonzalez next round.
Loss to Segura for third place

Queensland Pro Champs
Hoad beat Cooper in first round
Loss to Trabert in the next round.
Gonzalez beat Hoad for third place

Western Australian Pro Champs
Impressive win.
Hoad beat Segura, Rosewall and Cooper to win the tournament

NSW Pro Champs
Hoad beat Anderson in the quarters after a bye
Loss to Gonzalez in the next round.
Rosewall beat Hoad for third place

South Australian Pro Champs
Hoad beat Rose, Trabert and Rosewall to win the tournament

World Pro Champs also US Pro
Hoad beat Riggs in quarters after bye
Hoad beat Segura
Hoad lost to Gonzalez in straights

Masters Round Robin
Gonzalez and Hoad finished with identical w-l if 5-1 but Gonzalez won the tournament because he defeated Hoad

O'Keefe Pro Champs
Hoad beat Rose in the first round
Sedgman beat Hoad in semi
Gonzalez won the tournament by beating Sedgman

Tournament of Champions
Impressive win by Hoad in defeating Anderson, Rosewall and Gonzalez to win the tournament

Hoad played a tour which according to McCauley was won by Trabert. Rosewall and Sedgman also played.

French Pro Champs
Hoad beat Molloy in the first round easily
Hoad beat Rose in the quarters
Hoad lost to Sedgman in four sets in the semi.
Trabert won the tournament over Sedgman
Hoad beat Rosewall for third

London Pro Indoor Champs at Wembley
Hoad beat Horn-first round
Hoad lost to Segura in the quarters
Hoad beat Rose for fifth

Paris Round Robin
Hoad finished with a 1-2 record with Sedgman, Rosewall and Trabert participating. Sedgman won the tournament with a 3-0 record with Rosewall second at 2-1.


Hoad lost to Segura in the quarters.


South Australian Round Robin
Hoad won with a 3-0 record Sedgman 2-1 Gonzalez 1-2 and Hartwig 0-3

NSW Pro Champs
Hoad beat Rose in the first round
Hoad beat Anderson in the Semi
Hoad lost to Gonzalez in the final in straight sets

Queensland Pro Champs
Hoad beat Cooper in the first round
Rosewall beat Hoad in the semi
Rosewall beat Gonzalez in the final

Judge for yourself if 1959 is dominant.

Yes I didn't include the tour but you already know the record there which is 42-20 won-lost with Gonzalez, Anderson and Cooper. Gonzalez finished 47-15 but lost his head to head 13-15 to Hoad.

Incidentally which two Pro Majors did he win?

We should be careful about quoting from "Joe's book", which is short on some information.
You left out the Kooyong championship of January 1960, which was the final event of the 1959 Ampol World Championship and determined the final division of the bonus money pool. This was part of the 1959 season.
You have reported more than one event from the Grand Prix de Europe, which was a separate series of events won by Sedgman. The "tour won by Trabert" and the "Paris Round Robin" were constituent events of the Grand Prix de Europe, not final championship events. Gonzales did not participate, and was resting in America.
The designated Ampol world championship events did not include the Grand Prix de Europe, the Cleveland Arena championship, the Wembley championship, the latter two events outside the Kramer management. The Ampol series of 14 tournaments was officially constituted to determine an overall world champion, as detailed in World Tennis magazine (presumably related to World Tennis Inc., Kramer's organization).
The Forest Hills event and the Kooyong event were the most prominent venues in their respective countries and carried the most prestige.
As I have pointed out earlier, the final tally showed that Hoad finished first with 6 victories in 14 tournaments, Gonzales with 4 victories, Rosewall with 2, Sedgman with 1, Trabert with 1.
In addition Gonzales is on record as stating, "the only player to beat me in a head to head tour was Hoad in 1959".
Is this a dominant year? Yes, by any normal standard, the best year ever.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

We should be careful about quoting from "Joe's book", which is short on some information.
You left out the Kooyong championship of January 1960, which was the final event of the 1959 Ampol World Championship and determined the final division of the bonus money pool. This was part of the 1959 season.
You have reported more than one event from the Grand Prix de Europe, which was a separate series of events won by Sedgman. The "tour won by Trabert" and the "Paris Round Robin" were constituent events of the Grand Prix de Europe, not final championship events. Gonzales did not participate, and was resting in America.
The designated Ampol world championship events did not include the Grand Prix de Europe, the Cleveland Arena championship, the Wembley championship, the latter two events outside the Kramer management. The Ampol series of 14 tournaments was officially constituted to determine an overall world champion, as detailed in World Tennis magazine (presumably related to World Tennis Inc., Kramer's organization).
The Forest Hills event and the Kooyong event were the most prominent venues in their respective countries and carried the most prestige.
As I have pointed out earlier, the final tally showed that Hoad finished first with 6 victories in 14 tournaments, Gonzales with 4 victories, Rosewall with 2, Sedgman with 1, Trabert with 1.
In addition Gonzales is on record as stating, "the only player to beat me in a head to head tour was Hoad in 1959".
Is this a dominant year? Yes, by any normal standard, the best year ever.

You blame Rosewall for having lost TWO matches to Laver in their 1963 series (Rosewall won 11:2) but neglect all the MANY losses (listed by pc1) Hoad suffered from several players in 1959. It's disgusting. If you were a professional historian, you would lose your job immediately!

Learn history!

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Perry was never the top pro. In 1941, he was lucky to win at Forest Hills over an injured Budge, recovering from a broken nose, and unable to take risks by diving around the court.
A cheesy win.

Budge lost that match not so much because he couldn't dive, but because he was just out of the hospital for facial surgery to repair the nose, which had been broken in a fall in a New York hotel some weeks before: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...4091%2C2641342.

The troupe was in the NY area in the first week of May so presumably Budge was injured then. The tour made at least two more stops (Rock Hill and Birmingham) before concluding on May 10. Budge then underwent surgery and a two-week hospital stay, losing to Faunce at the US Pro in late May and to Perry at Forest Hills on June 6.

[pc1]

Guys you saw some of the information on Hoad's year in my previous post 66 in this thread. Does it look like a dominant year? Need opinions.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by pc1

Don't answer for me. I did NOT write that.

Incidentally was Hoad ever dominant in any year outside of the amateurs? Give me his record in his most dominant year.
Did he ever had any year like Tilden in his best years or let's say McEnroe in 1984? How about Connors in 1974?

How about Laver in:

1961: 16 titles
1962: 22 titles (incl. amateur G.S.)
1964: 11 titles
1965: 17 titles
1966: 16 titles
1967: 19 titles
1968: 13 titles
1969: 18 titles (incl. open G.S.)
1970: 15 titles

[urban]

Given, that Hoad had strong opposition in 1959 and was about even with Gonzalez for the year, but it wasn't a dominant year by any means. Hoad in his best days was a beast. I have not seen enough - only short clips and longer clips from his DC Match with Trabert - to make a final judgement on his peak ability, but all contemporaries were in awe. In day in, day out play Hoad wasn't the best. His most dominant year was probably 1956, when he won the lot on the amateur tour, including a near Grand Slam and the European clay triple. But even as amateur, he wasn't unbeatable over a longer period of time. Even in 1957, he had a long losing streak in spring before peaking again at Wimbledon. After Wimbledon he lost 2-14 on his pro debute.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

We should be careful about quoting from "Joe's book", which is short on some information.
You left out the Kooyong championship of January 1960, which was the final event of the 1959 Ampol World Championship and determined the final division of the bonus money pool. This was part of the 1959 season.
You have reported more than one event from the Grand Prix de Europe, which was a separate series of events won by Sedgman. The "tour won by Trabert" and the "Paris Round Robin" were constituent events of the Grand Prix de Europe, not final championship events. Gonzales did not participate, and was resting in America.
The designated Ampol world championship events did not include the Grand Prix de Europe, the Cleveland Arena championship, the Wembley championship, the latter two events outside the Kramer management. The Ampol series of 14 tournaments was officially constituted to determine an overall world champion, as detailed in World Tennis magazine (presumably related to World Tennis Inc., Kramer's organization).
The Forest Hills event and the Kooyong event were the most prominent venues in their respective countries and carried the most prestige.
As I have pointed out earlier, the final tally showed that Hoad finished first with 6 victories in 14 tournaments, Gonzales with 4 victories, Rosewall with 2, Sedgman with 1, Trabert with 1.
In addition Gonzales is on record as stating, "the only player to beat me in a head to head tour was Hoad in 1959".
Is this a dominant year? Yes, by any normal standard, the best year ever.

Here's the stats
Hoad in tournament play in 1959 according to McCauley
Three tournaments won in thirteen attempts.
A 25-14 record.

If you count the tournament in early 1960 as part of 1959
Then it's four tournaments in fourteen attempts
A 29-15 record.

He lost a tour in which Trabert, Rosewall and Sedgman participated.

He finished 42-20 on a tour with Gonzalez, Anderson and Cooper
Gonzalez had the best record at 47-15 on this tour but lost 13-15 to Hoad in their individual encounters. Cooper was third at 21-40 and Anderson was fourth at 13-48.

There was also another tour in Stockholm, Gothenburg, Oslo, Lyon, Marseille and Berlin. Hoad finished third. Sedgman won with 18 wins, 9 losses followed closely by Rosewall with 17 wins, 10 losses, Hoad far behind with 11 and Trabert trailing everyone with 8.

Is this a dominant year?

[Limpinhitter]

Funny how Margaret Court has long been forgotten in this thread.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

You blame Rosewall for having lost TWO matches to Laver in their 1963 series (Rosewall won 11:2) but neglect all the MANY losses (listed by pc1) Hoad suffered bad losses from several players in 1959. It's disgusting. If you were a professional historian, you would lose your job immediately!

Learn history!

Cannot understand your point.
In the Ampol series of 14 tournaments to decide the world champion, Hoad finished the year with the best record by far.
Rosewall was in the 1959 Ampol series, and won two tournaments, while Hoad won six. Rosewall was probably at his absolute peak in the late fifties.
Is this difficult to understand?
Laver played well early in the 1963 series, and won the most important match of the series at Kooyong, a televised event, against Rosewall. Laver became exhausted from the schedule after a while.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by pc1

Guys you saw some of the information on Hoad's year in my previous post 66 in this thread. Does it look like a dominant year? Need opinions.

C'mon, you missed the final tournament of the season, and you did not identify the constituents of the Ampol World Championship. Those are crucial pieces of information which you did not include.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

How about Laver in:

1961: 16 titles
1962: 22 titles (incl. amateur G.S.)
1964: 11 titles
1965: 17 titles
1966: 16 titles
1967: 19 titles
1968: 13 titles
1969: 18 titles (incl. open G.S.)
1970: 15 titles

Laver played only four head to head series during these years against the likes of Rosewall and Hoad, and lost all four of them, three in 1963 and one in 1964. Plus a private series against Hoad in 1963 and 1964, the second of which he won.
Not overwhelming.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by urban

Given, that Hoad had strong opposition in 1959 and was about even with Gonzalez for the year, but it wasn't a dominant year by any means. Hoad in his best days was a beast. I have not seen enough - only short clips and longer clips from his DC Match with Trabert - to make a final judgement on his peak ability, but all contemporaries were in awe. In day in, day out play Hoad wasn't the best. His most dominant year was probably 1956, when he won the lot on the amateur tour, including a near Grand Slam and the European clay triple. But even as amateur, he wasn't unbeatable over a longer period of time. Even in 1957, he had a long losing streak in spring before peaking again at Wimbledon. After Wimbledon he lost 2-14 on his pro debute.

Again, some matches are worth more than others.
In early 1957, he was in a BODY CAST for six weeks...difficult to play like that.
In 1958 and 1959 he won the officially constituted world championship, more convincingly in 1959.
Winning six designated events (out of a total of 14) plus a head to head series, including the top tournament of the decade makes for a dominant year, and the best year ever by a player.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Funny how Margaret Court has long been forgotten in this thread.

Agreed!

10concurrences

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by pc1

Here's the stats
Hoad in tournament play in 1959 according to McCauley
Three tournaments won in thirteen attempts.
A 25-14 record.

If you count the tournament in early 1960 as part of 1959
Then it's four tournaments in fourteen attempts
A 29-15 record.

He lost a tour in which Trabert, Rosewall and Sedgman participated.

He finished 42-20 on a tour with Gonzalez, Anderson and Cooper
Gonzalez had the best record at 47-15 on this tour but lost 13-15 to Hoad in their individual encounters. Cooper was third at 21-40 and Anderson was fourth at 13-48.

There was also another tour in Stockholm, Gothenburg, Oslo, Lyon, Marseille and Berlin. Hoad finished third. Sedgman won with 18 wins, 9 losses followed closely by Rosewall with 17 wins, 10 losses, Hoad far behind with 11 and Trabert trailing everyone with 8.

Is this a dominant year?

Your stats are off again.
SIX tournaments ON THE AMPOL TOUR, all listed in McCauley.
1) Perth Jan.26-30
2) Adelaide Feb. 11-14
3) Forest Hills June 23-28
4) Perth Nov. 26-28
5) Adelaide Dec. 1-6
6) Kooyong Jan. 1-7
Following the Kooyong event, the Ampol final results were tallied and bonus money divided, as reported in New York Times and London Times, World Tennis, etc.
The Trabert, Rosewall, Sedgman tour also included Mervyn Rose, was in FEBRUARY, and in NEW ZEALAND. These pros were not involved in the American four-man tour with Hoad and Gonzales. What is your point here?
You have not restricted your match tally to the Ampol series, which constituted the events for the world championship.
Hoad was clearly overtennised on the European phase of the year, but showed up anyway. Gonzales rested after the gruelling American tour.