Lew Hoad-A discussion on his career

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

Definitely a nice idea.A great czech pilsen will do

Don't drink Czech alcohol. 29 people died recently in Czech republic...

[BobbyOne]

Guys,

I can't participate in this discussion because I'm anti-alcoholic....

I need a clear mind to be able to disprove Dan's "arguments"....

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by urban

Can someone give the known numbers of Hoad for 1959, not selective results but all tournaments played plus the main hth tours? From what i have read in other threads, he did well considering the strong opposition, but wasn't dominant. It seems, that all the top contenders in 1959, Gonzalez, Hoad, Rosewall and even Sedgman were pretty close, and indeed the contemporary rankings by Kramer, Anderson and other promoters and players were anything but unanimous. If i am right, then Hoad ranked from 1 to 4, regarding the rankings, and mostly Gonzalez was ranked Nr. 1.

The "selective" results were drawn together as they represent the Ampol World Championship Tour, designed to determine the overall world champion. Thus, the top pros concentrated their efforts on winning these 14 tournaments. That is why they have been collected, and they show that Hoad dominated, 34 wins against 13 losses.
Together with a 42-20 record on the American pro championship tour, Hoad's overall record for the two world championships is 76 wins and 33 losses, an overwhelming lead over the other players.
Yes, I consider this a greater year for Hoad in 1959 than Laver's numbers in 1969, considering the differences in the quality of the respective fields.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

You forgot that Hoad lost the American tour to Gonzalez.

We not only disagree HERE ! We disagree almost in all matters!

An exception could be that we agree that Rosewall was stronger than Peter Cawthorn, Ray Keldie and Vince Spadea....

Strange you should say that, as Gonzales himself claimed that Hoad won the American tour over him.
Rosewall played his most brilliant tennis in 1958 and 1959.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

I think that Joe McCauley has given almost all events. An exception are those few (4 man) tournaments of (probably) July when Rosewall beat Gonzalez twice.

I guess that Dan is the first and only man who ranked Hoad first for 1959...

No, in Anderson's account of the 1959 season in World Tennis magazine, the official publication of World Tennis Inc., Kramer's organization, he lists the final results of the world championship tour, as I have, with Hoad first and Gonzales second.
It might be well for you to realize that 14 tournaments were designated to constitute the world championship, and these events show Hoad overwhelming the field.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Thanks, pc1.

I think that I also anwered your question in great detail.
No problem.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by pc1

Just some information on Hoad's year of 1959 in which he had another tour with Pancho Gonzalez and also toured with Cooper and Anderson.

Again, you have not indicated any awareness (neither did McCauley) of the Ampol World Championship Tour, which was constituted by 14 of the tournaments.
Some people can neglect the most basic facts.
The schedule concluded with the Kooyong event in Jan 1-7 1960.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

I agree.

But Hoad also lost several pro majors' finals when he was in his prime (French Pro 1958, US Pro 1958 and 1959 and even lost a couple of matches before reaching the final (Wembley 1957, 1959, French pro 1959)...

At Roland Garros in 1958, Hoad led Rosewall in the final, but wrenched his back reaching for a ball.
The "US Pro" was not a major event by any standard.
Wembley did not rate inclusion in the top 14 designated tournaments for 1959.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by pc1

Gonzalez beat Cooper and Anderson by a combined total of 34 to 0. Gonzalez was 13-15 against Hoad. Hoad was a combined 27-7 against Cooper and Anderson.



I guess you both missed each other.

Actually, there were TWO championship tours in both 1958 and 1959.
The head-to-head series, and the Ampol tournament series.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by pc1

We need a little wine and a sitdown with Kodes and talk about Vines.

I am not battling with Lobb anymore. It's fruitless. Let's just write about Hoad and Kodes instead.

Strange, PC1, you asked me to compile the records for the Ampol series, I took some time and trouble to do that, and then you refuse to comment on the results.
I guess the results I provided you with were too much to handle.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

At least I can stress that you learnt history much better than Dan did.

Some people are averse to learning new facts about history.

[Mustard]

Dan, are you the CEO of this Ampol company or something? I can't get over how many times you've mentioned Ampol on these forums, more times than CBS/NBC mention sponsors on their tennis broadcasts. An old propaganda trick is "Never tell a small lie. Tell a big lie and keep repeating it, and eventually people come to believe it's the truth."

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Dan, are you the CEO of this Ampol company or something? I can't get over how many times you've mentioned Ampol on these forums, more times than CBS/NBC mention sponsors on their tennis broadcasts.

That is because the sources stress AMPOL, the giant oil company and financial partner of Kramer. The points the players earned for their placing in the designated tournaments were called "Ampol points" by the press coverage, and the Toronto Star referred to them as "crucial Ampol points".
Even McCauley makes reference to "Final AMPOL points standings after 5 tournaments", where he appears to mistakenly believe that the Ampol series terminated in Feb. 1959, rather than continuing (from Jan. 10, 1959 to Jan. 7, 1960).
The final points after the final event (Kooyong 1960) determined the share of bonus money each player received.
When Hoad semi-retired in Jan 1960, it appears that Ampol severed its partnership with the Kramer tour, and the 14 tournament schedule of the 1959 season became the precursor of Kramer's 1969 Grand Prix proposal.

[Mustard]

The pro tour had some financial difficulties in the early 1960s. Sponsors left, Jack March's finances went belly up as the US Pro got extremely weak by the time Buchholz won the tournament in 1962, and the tournament had to leave Cleveland. Holding it in Forest Hills the following year was a financial disaster, with none of the players paid apart from Gonzales negotiating a $5,000 appearance fee to come out of retirement. The French Pro had to leave Roland Garros and move to the Stade Coubertin. I believe even Jack Kramer himself resigned around this time and handed over control to Tony Trabert.

Thank goodness for Laver's arrival in the pros and Gonzales returning, eh?

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by Mustard

The pro tour had some financial difficulties in the early 1960s. Sponsors left, Jack March's finances went belly up as the US Pro got extremely weak by the time Buchholz won the tournament in 1962, and the tournament had to leave Cleveland. Holding it in Forest Hills the following year was a financial disaster, with none of the players paid apart from Gonzales negotiating a $5,000 appearance fee to come out of retirement. The French Pro had to leave Roland Garros and move to the Stade Coubertin. I believe even Jack Kramer himself resigned around this time and handed over control to Tony Trabert.

Thank goodness for Laver's arrival in the pros and Gonzales returning, eh?

Kramer apparently resented Hoad's semi-retirement, which cost the tour much credibility.
Kramer attempted to sign Laver in 1961 to play a tour against Rosewall in 1962, Laver refused, thinking his value would go up the following year.
Kramer, with no tour on tap for 1962, retired in 1961 and handed the reigns over to Trabert.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Strange you should say that, as Gonzales himself claimed that Hoad won the American tour over him.
Rosewall played his most brilliant tennis in 1958 and 1959.

Even when you repeat it 100 times: Hoad did NOT win the 1959 tour. Gonzalez just said that Hoad won the hth IN this tour but not the tour itself.

All, I mean actually ALL EXPERTS wrote and said that Rosewall played his most brillant tennis in 1962 and 1963 (not only his best record then). Rosewall won only 1 pro major then but won 18 other pro and open majors in the 1960s and 1970s! Learn history!

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

No, in Anderson's account of the 1959 season in World Tennis magazine, the official publication of World Tennis Inc., Kramer's organization, he lists the final results of the world championship tour, as I have, with Hoad first and Gonzales second.
It might be well for you to realize that 14 tournaments were designated to constitute the world championship, and these events show Hoad overwhelming the field.

Mal Anderson only brought the result of the 14 tournament tour but never said that Hoad was generally the No.1 in 1959.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Again, you have not indicated any awareness (neither did McCauley) of the Ampol World Championship Tour, which was constituted by 14 of the tournaments.
Some people can neglect the most basic facts.
The schedule concluded with the Kooyong event in Jan 1-7 1960.

I'm not sure if a 1960 event counted for 1959. Same Jimmy Connors' win at the masters in January 1978.

You have brought so many errors and wrong opinions that I doubt to trust you at this point.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Even when you repeat it 100 times: Hoad di NOT win the 1959 tour. Gonzalez just said that Hoad won the hth IN this tour but not the tour itself.

All, I mean actually ALL EXPERTS wrote and said that Rosewall played his most brillant tennis in 1962 and 1963 (not only his best record then). Rosewall won only 1 pro major then but won 18 other pro and open majors in the 1960s and 1970s! Learn history!

Gonzales called the tour a "head to head" tour, by which he meant that the feature match at each stop was a Gonzales-Hoad match.
This was not a true round-robin tour, as Hoad and Gonzales played each other 28 times, while playing only 34 matches against the two rookies combined.
When a player dominates a match, he appears to be brilliant. When Rosewall controlled his matches in the early sixties, he APPEARED to be more brilliant than before, BUT he was getting more OPPORTUNITIES to look briliiant against Hoad and Gonzales after they passed their prime. They were no longer able to control their matches against Rosewall, as their abilities had declined. Simple.
Objectively, Rosewall playeed awseome tennis in 1958 and 1959, especially at Forest Hills, where he looked like winning both tournaments, the biggest of the year. Gonzales and Hoad had to get up off the canvas to pull out their wins against him.
And the Kooyong 1960 final between Hoad and Rosewall, the season finale, was described in the New York Times as the greatest match ever played at Kooyong stadium. It doesn't get any better than the best!

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

At Roland Garros in 1958, Hoad led Rosewall in the final, but wrenched his back reaching for a ball.
The "US Pro" was not a major event by any standard.
Wembley did not rate inclusion in the top 14 designated tournaments for 1959.

I wonder why Wembley should not have been included in the series. Are you sure? Do you have any proof?

However, Wembley was a pro major and more important than many of "your" tournaments.