Annual flu shot bashing thread - 2012

[r2473]

A doctor told me this "joke" a while back"


A man walks into the pharmacy and tells his pharmacist, "Doc, I have a terrible flu, what can you give me to make me feel better".

Pharmacist replies, "You don't have the flu, you have a cold".

Man asks, "How do you know that".

Pharmacist replies, "Because you're here".


Point being, when you have the flu (instead of a cold), you aren't up walking around. It really knocks you on your *****.

The further point is that people often mistake a (bad) cold for the flu.

[r2473]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

I can't say with certainty(both caused by viruses), but since I was being exposed to the flu virus from being around people who had obvious flu-like symptoms, I just assumed that the virus-like symptoms I was experiencing were from the same virus.

Originally Posted by WildVolley

But some years I've helped people who have received the vaccine yet still become quite sick, while I've only had symptoms that are like an annoying cold.

But by your own admission you didn't present with the same symptoms as the people you were helping.

[WildVolley]

Originally Posted by r2473

But by your own admission you didn't present with the same symptoms as the people you were helping.

As I've stated previously, neither of us can be sure. However, it is wrong to think that everyone suffers as much from the same flu virus. People with weak or compromised immune systems can die from a seasonal flu. The rest of us suffer a lot, a little, or not at all. The whole point of a vaccine is to prep the immune system to deal with a strain of the virus. It could be that my immune system had dealt with a related virus in the past and therefore did a better job of fighting off the new strain as compared to someone else.

Last winter I took care of a few people who were out for almost a week with a nasty flu. I didn't get anything even though I most likely was exposed to the same virus (we identified who first exposed the other three who got sick and got an idea of the incubation period). Now it is possible that I didn't get exposed. It is also possible that I was also exposed to the virus but my immune system did a better job of dealing with it.

[sureshs]

I asked my doctor yesterday if the shots are effective even though the viruses keep mutating. She said it is still 80% effective even if the strain changes. She also said once she got the flu and could not get out of bed for 3 days.

We take it only because we have a school-going kid.

On the discomfort side, I took the shot in the morning, had pain in the arm for a few hours, but was playing tennis (and serving) in the evening with no pain. Felt tired at night and slept like a log and now absolutely OK.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Every year, the elderly get sicker, get new sicknesses, die from the new bugs introduced into their systems. Leave them well enough alone.
They young can handle the germs that are introduced into your body.
Most old folks don't die directly from the shots, but die from complications from the shot including pnumonia, added load to the immune system (that is already weak and suspect), and results from being more sick than they already are.
Leave them alone.

When flu shots are in short supply, first preference is given to people above 65.

I suppose the NIH and CDC and everyone else in the world is wrong and you are right.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by r2473

But by your own admission you didn't present with the same symptoms as the people you were helping.

I like that. Even though you are an accountant in a medical institution (well that did not come out right), you have learnt medical jargon like "presents."

The first time I heard that someone presented with the symptoms, I was like, did he bring them wrapped properly.

[LeeD]

Suresh. Every year, the flu shot KILL dozens of senior citizens. That is also well documented, and presented on Channel 4 news several times in the last 10 years.
The shot itself doesn't kill anyone. BUT, the effects of the shot, taking part of the immune system to combat the effects of the shot does, as it weakens the total immune system at a period of time when it's needed to fight off other diseases.
Say you're in old fart. OK, not U, but me. I have maybe 60% of the total resistance and immunity power of you. I'm old. I'm injured. I'm sick. I'm out of shape. I don't get regular exercise.
Now shoot me up with disease. Since I have only 60% to fight with, just combatting the new stuff you introduced into my body takes half of that. Now I have only THIRTY percent to fight off the germs that are already present in my body!
GET IT?
You don't, those stupid "experts" don't.
Remember, your scientists are so STUPID, they take a 103 year old sturgeon who lived in fresh water all it's life (LakeSonoma in Cal.), dump it into salt water, and it dies in ONE day!
For every 10 scientists, we need 10 people with COMMON SENSE.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Suresh. Every year, the flu shot KILL dozens of senior citizens. That is also well documented, and presented on Channel 4 news several times in the last 10 years.

Umm, I think I'd like to see a citation on that one. I think you probably misinterpreted whatever you saw on the news.

I don't get the flu shot because I've never had the flu, I'm not in one of the populations that has a lot to fear from the flu, and I'd rather not mess around with my organism more than necessary. Irrational maybe but that's what I'm going with.

But I don't think it's a bad idea to get one, and I may start getting it when I join the ranks of the old and/or infirm.

[LeeD]

Avles, you are not 75 years old, weak, old, tired, sick, and in need of constant assistance to perform life's basic chores.
What works for YOU, like daily exercise, eating steak, running and jumping, might not work for some elderly or the sick.
YOU think everything that works for you works for everyone else.
YOU ARE DEAD WRONG!

[Avles]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Avles, you are not 75 years old, weak, old, tired, sick, and in need of constant assistance to perform life's basic chores.
What works for YOU, like daily exercise, eating steak, running and jumping, might not work for some elderly or the sick.
YOU think everything that works for you works for everyone else.
YOU ARE DEAD WRONG!

Not sure where you got the idea that I was advocating any course of action for anybody. I think everyone should make their own choices about the flu vaccine and I'm not about to criticize anyone's choice.

I was just saying that I think you may have misinterpreted what the local news had to say (and the local news isn't exactly the best source for medical info anyway).

The science that says that the flu shot is a net positive for the very young and the elderly looks fairly convincing to me. I'll take another look at it if I'm considering the shots for myself, or if I have kids.

[LeeD]

The "science", like the politician, and the war monger tyrant, is willing to sacrifice a few for the good of the many.
Would you? If one of the few was your uncle?
What about if it was YOU?

[sureshs]

Everyone listen to Dr. Lee, Board Certified in Tennis.

I don't know where you got the sturgeon news from, but if it was not for vaccines, you will probably not be here today or going around with twisted limbs from polio or a body full of warts from smallpox. Trust me, I have seen such people firsthand.

[LeeD]

Yes, I took the polio, smallpox, chickenpox, and the shots when I was 5 years old, maybe 4. And I thank that for being alive today.
Doesn't mean it doesn't kill the elderly or the sick.
To sacrifice a few for the good of the many is a choice we all have to examine very closely. At what price?
Another stupid scientist thing...... There is a MarineMammalCenter here in MarinCountiesFt.CronkiteBeach. Every year, they take in stray, lost, injured, or abandoned baby seals, nurse them to health, TAG THEM, then release them back to the ocean. Guess what? Fully NINETY percent of them die within a year, or need human care. Why is that, I ask you?

[r2473]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

As I've stated previously, neither of us can be sure. However, it is wrong to think that everyone suffers as much from the same flu virus. People with weak or compromised immune systems can die from a seasonal flu. The rest of us suffer a lot, a little, or not at all.

You've had the flu and not suffered at all (had no symptoms)? I'll have to take your word on that. Or do you mean that you had the flu virus, but since you had the flu shot, your body was able to rid it from your body before you got sick with symptoms?

Generally speaking, flu's are more severe than colds.

I also think you can just check for fever. You might get a very mild fever with a cold (but usually not, unless you are a kid), but will always (nearly always?) have a fever with the flu.

This CDC article basically agrees with us both. It says that it is impossible to tell the two apart, but suggests common symptoms associated with each.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/coldflu.htm

[Limpinhitter]

Deleted for mootness.

[WildVolley]

Originally Posted by r2473

You've had the flu and not suffered at all (had no symptoms)? I'll have to take your word on that. Or do you mean that you had the flu virus, but since you had the flu shot, your body was able to rid it from your body before you got sick with symptoms?

Generally speaking, flu's are more severe than colds.

I also think you can just check for fever. You might get a very mild fever with a cold (but usually not, unless you are a kid), but will always (nearly always?) have a fever with the flu.

This CDC article basically agrees with us both. It says that it is impossible to tell the two apart, but suggests common symptoms associated with each.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/coldflu.htm

I'm editing this to make clear that when I say "having the flu" I'm talking about exposure to the virus, not necessarily the nasty symptoms. I'm just suggesting that it is possible to be exposed to a virus and have an immune system response without necessarily suffering from a nasty infection. So, this would suggest exposure to the virus not getting sick.

Again, I'm not an expert on this subject, but I do believe that it is possible that exposure to a virus doesn't necessarily mean a rip-roaring infection. As I understand it, a virus is a piece of genetic code usually in a hard protein cover that hijacks cells to reproduce. As I understand it, these viruses are extremely common, though luckily not all of them cause infections.

If your immune system is healthy, it should seek out viruses that are causing trouble and destroy them so they can't keep hijacking cells and reproducing. I've done stupid things like accidentally drink out of glass someone else with an active flu symptoms was using. My assumption is that I was exposed to the virus even though I didn't develop any symptoms of an infection. Perhaps I was never infected or perhaps my immune system cleared it before it caused any noticeable trouble.

[r2473]

Somehow we got sidetracked.

I only commented several posts ago that you can generally tell if you have the cold or a flu by the severity of the symptoms. Then I suggested checking for fever. I believe many people do mistake their cold for the flu. But in my experience, people that really have the flu (full blown; symptoms; etc), are pretty much in bed for at least a day or two. But it is (quite) possible to function with a (bad) cold.

But yes, I understand that the immune system can fight off the virus and you may never have any symptoms at all.

[WildVolley]

Yeah, getting a bad flu is not fun. It has been more than five years since I've had the sort of flu in which I ended up over a toilet with stuff coming out both ends.

I think a lot of people would get the flu shot if they thought it could prevent that with a high level of efficacy. However, from what I've read, the flu shot doesn't have a good record over the past number of years of even correctly identifying the strains that traveled thru California. I remember a lot of people who had the shot still getting a nasty flu two years ago.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by LeeD

The "science", like the politician, and the war monger tyrant, is willing to sacrifice a few for the good of the many.
Would you? If one of the few was your uncle?
What about if it was YOU?

Well, what if one of the many was my uncle or me?

There's no risk-free course of action. So I try to take the course of action that minimizes risks. Science can help with that, even if it can't offer certainties.

[LeeD]

In other words, you are willing to sacrifice a few for the good of the many.