Should you work on dealing with disruption/gamesmanship

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by Avles

Okay, but you've just said that you bean people intentionally, in part to help "boost your confidence." So the fact that beaning can happen accidentally seems pretty much irrelevant.

And it's certainly possible for something innocently intended to be misinterpreted as gamesmanship.



Uh-huh. So is it okay to bean people unprovoked to intimidate them, or is it only okay when you want to punish them for alleged gamesmanship?

Just trying to get a sense of how your values system works here...

I dont see how you read the part where I said it boosts my confidence but then jump to the assumption that I bean people "unprovoked". You're either selectively reading, or intentionally leaving out parts.

I only bean people in retaliation for "gamesmanship" the same way some people hook line calls after being hooked themselves. Some people call refs or write appeals. Some people just let themselves mentally crumble.

It boosts my confidence when I bean (or nearly bean) someone after they try their hand at gamesmanship. I know when they stoop to that they're getting desperate, much like making bad linecalls, because its that point where they can no longer play you straight up and have to resort to other methods.


I never agree to calling for a ref unless someone is adamant about it. I also never make intentionally bad line calls. I dont do those things because I feel they're not part of the game. I feel like beaning people is part of the game its just that most people dont do it to be nice and I agree. When someone resorts to "guerrilla tactics" like calling officials, hooking lines, or gamesmanship, I just do away with the "being nice" and therefore elect to hit the ball at them instead of trying to avoid them.

[dcdoorknob]

If NTRP is ever playing someone who actually has great hands/reflexes, all they'd have to do is **** him off in some way, then come to net every point. NTRP will just hit it straight at him every shot. Would probably be a quick match.

[Angle Queen]

Originally Posted by NLBwell

I'm so focused on what I'm doing (even yelling at myself) that I don't even notice if someone is trying gamesmanship. Of course there are a few guys who out and out cheat - line calls, even surreptitiously changing the score on the net post.

I'm somewhere with NLBwell. "Gamemanship"? I didn't even really know what that meant til I started played USTA (and reading TT posts). Either there's so little of it at my (admittedly low) level, or I'm oblivious to it. I tend to chalk it up to idiosyncrasies, naivety, stupidity or something else beyond my comprehension and figure I don't have the time or patience for it. Outright cheating...that's different than gamesmanship...it's lying or cheating. Different story. Still tend not to let it get me worked up, though. If it's a social match that was privately arranged, I just decline in the future. For USTA or prescribed matches, I just accept it as a the Way It Is.

I can't imagine actually practicing the things the OP describes just so they wouldn't be an issue.

[tennis tom]

An example of gamesmanship I often see is the server who only calls the score out if they are ahead. They would never call the score out if they're down 15-40, but when they're up 40-15 they always call it out loud and clear. Sometimes I'll retaliate by calling the score for them--in the middle of their service motion.

Another gamesmanship thing they'll do is journey to the far reaches of the court to gather up a ball that is not needed. They'll do it to try to throw off your rhythm. Sometimes they're old guys who need to catch their breath. I don't mind it so much if it's of necessity, I don't think they are even conscious of it sometimes.

[KoaUka]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

I dont see how you read the part where I said it boosts my confidence but then jump to the assumption that I bean people "unprovoked". You're either selectively reading, or intentionally leaving out parts.

I only bean people in retaliation for "gamesmanship" the same way some people hook line calls after being hooked themselves. Some people call refs or write appeals. Some people just let themselves mentally crumble.

It boosts my confidence when I bean (or nearly bean) someone after they try their hand at gamesmanship. I know when they stoop to that they're getting desperate, much like making bad linecalls, because its that point where they can no longer play you straight up and have to resort to other methods.fT


I never agree to calling for a ref unless someone is adamant about it. I also never make intentionally bad line calls. I dont do those things because I feel they're not part of the game. I feel like beaning people is part of the game its just that most people dont do it to be nice and I agree. When someone resorts to "guerrilla tactics" like calling officials, hooking lines, or gamesmanship, I just do away with the "being nice" and therefore elect to hit the ball at them instead of trying to avoid them.

You could always just ” win”, In my experience that usually works against someone that is trying to game you. Hitting someone intentionally is a D-bag move.

Do you at least say sorry after you hit them? Or just say vamos!?

[corbind]

Originally Posted by KoaUka

Do you at least say sorry after you hit them? Or just say vamos!?

In the distance I can hear him sing, "It's gooooooooooooood!"

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by KoaUka

You could always just ” win”, In my experience that usually works against someone that is trying to game you. Hitting someone intentionally is a D-bag move.

Do you at least say sorry after you hit them? Or just say vamos!?

Whenever I hit someone I always say sorry whether I was trying to or not. I also say sorry if I hit an errant shot that goes towards them. I did a lot of sorry-saying today because the sun was really bad and I had a few errant serves that went "in the direction" of the net player when I was serving on the deuce side and trying to serve the returners backhand.

If it was as easy as "just win" im pretty sure a lot less people would resort to any tactics other than simple play.

I mean, if I was as good as you, I would never have to hit in the direction of anyone at anytime for any reason. Every time I would hit an overhead its always well clear of people, I may even call out where im going to hit it so they can get out of the way. Every time I attempt to pass it always paints the line well clear of any of their players and they always call it in. Sounds like a fantastic game you have.

Making bad line calls is a d-bag move to me.
Gamesmanship is a d-bag move to me.

Beaning people is a part of the game, intentionally or not. When you play high level tennis you cannot expect people to just "avoid you". In social tennis people play very nice. High level competitive games people do get beaned all the time and you cannot let it distract you. Beaning people and getting beaned by people is inevitable especially when the ball is moving fast.

[kelkat]

Back to the original thought of the OP -- good job, Dad! What a wise man he is.

Me? I admit it, I'm a weanie. I want things perfect. That's why the majority of my season is indoors. The only thing I have to content with is playing matches at certain other clubs.... where the lighting so poor it's like playing in your Grandfathers basement.

Yes, I need to buck-up.

[ollinger]

Sometimes when I practice I have my wife stand next to the court and scream ethnic epithets at me. I've also had her wave foreign flags when I'm trying to serve.

[tennis tom]

Macenroe is probably the best example of the GREAT BENEFIT of utilizing gamesmanship to one's benefit. He would throw one of his ****yfits when behind, going off on anyone within ice-pitcher reach, while his opponent stood or sat idly by--losing their rhythm. Invariably, when play resumed, Macenroe would pull ahead having destroyed his opponent's match momentum. As the OP's father wisely taught him to prepare to ward off such gamesmanship moment's, I wonder if johnny mac's old man taught his son how to effectively utilize such disruptive incidents for personal benefit and gain-- his old man certainly didn't discipline his son not to. And now his old man is a high up USTA official.

[Cindysphinx]

NTRPolice,

You say you bean people in response to gamesmanship, suggesting this is akin to hooking in response to hooking.

If that is how you view things, then you should bean in response to beaning and use gamesmanship in response to gamesmanship, no?

[r2473]

Should you work on dealing with disruption/gamesmanship

"Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the face"

There is some arsehole out there that will get under your skin.

[dcdoorknob]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

NTRPolice,
If that is how you view things, then you should bean in response to beaning and use gamesmanship in response to gamesmanship, no?

He's hitting the ball as hard as he can at people, not for reasons related to the tennis, but to send a message and cause mental duress in his opponents. It is gamesmanship. He is using gamesmanship as a response to gamesmanship, whether he will admit it or not.

[r2473]

Originally Posted by ollinger

Sometimes when I practice I have my wife stand next to the court and scream ethnic epithets at me. I've also had her wave foreign flags when I'm trying to serve.

Now that's one supportive wife

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

NTRPolice,

You say you bean people in response to gamesmanship, suggesting this is akin to hooking in response to hooking.

If that is how you view things, then you should bean in response to beaning and use gamesmanship in response to gamesmanship, no?

No, because hooking, making intentionally bad line calls regardless of the situation is cheating. Beaning someone is not cheating under any circumstance.

I've never made an intentionally bad line call in my life.

Originally Posted by dcdoorknob

He's hitting the ball as hard as he can at people, not for reasons related to the tennis, but to send a message and cause mental duress in his opponents. It is gamesmanship. He is using gamesmanship as a response to gamesmanship, whether he will admit it or not.

If you define beaning someone as gamesmanship then I agree. I dont define beaning someone as gamesmanship. I dont see how beaning someone is at all the same as yelling across the net when your opponent is hitting, making bad line calls, or waving your arms in the air is the same.

You can bean someone and its not at all malicious. You cannot with good intentions make bad line calls, yell when your opponents are hitting, or wave your arms in the air.

[dcdoorknob]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

You can bean someone and its not at all malicious.

I agree, you can. But you can also bean someone maliciously, and what you have described in this thread absolutely qualifies. If you can't see that I don't know what to say. It's the intent behind the beaning, and your intent has been made crystal clear, and it is not really any different from the intent behind many other forms of gamesmanship.

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by dcdoorknob

I agree, you can. But you can also bean someone maliciously, and what you have described in this thread absolutely qualifies. If you can't see that I don't know what to say. It's the intent behind the beaning, and your intent has been made crystal clear, and it is not really any different from the intent behind many other forms of gamesmanship.

Well, for starters I dont want anyone to think that I do this all the time.

I rarely have to get to this level because most people are sensible. It's not like this mode has an on/off switch. It takes a while to build up to this and there are always verbal "warnings" and "politeness factors" people arnt considering. Beaning people intentionally is a last resort but I just want to be clear that I wont hesitate to do it if there is no respect between both sides of the net.

Many people use gamesmanship because its considered the most harmless form of cheating so many people dont question it or retaliate and thats exactly what they do it.

Every once in a while someone who is committing petty crime gets the book thrown at them. 3 strike rule.

[KoaUka]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

Whenever I hit someone I always say sorry whether I was trying to or not. I also say sorry if I hit an errant shot that goes towards them. I did a lot of sorry-saying today because the sun was really bad and I had a few errant serves that went "in the direction" of the net player when I was serving on the deuce side and trying to serve the returners backhand.

If it was as easy as "just win" im pretty sure a lot less people would resort to any tactics other than simple play.

I mean, if I was as good as you, I would never have to hit in the direction of anyone at anytime for any reason. Every time I would hit an overhead its always well clear of people, I may even call out where im going to hit it so they can get out of the way. Every time I attempt to pass it always paints the line well clear of any of their players and they always call it in. Sounds like a fantastic game you have.

Making bad line calls is a d-bag move to me.
Gamesmanship is a d-bag move to me.

Beaning people is a part of the game, intentionally or not. When you play high level tennis you cannot expect people to just "avoid you". In social tennis people play very nice. High level competitive games people do get beaned all the time and you cannot let it distract you. Beaning people and getting beaned by people is inevitable especially when the ball is moving fast.

When you start to react to your opponents attempt at "gaming", i.e. intentionally trying to peg them, you have already mentally lost and are falling right into their trap. You are letting their actions bother you and not focusing on YouR gameplan.

I think the op's point was that because his father trained him to deal with the "gaming" at an early age, he is now mentally stronger and doesn't let those petty things affect the way he plays.

I realize pegging people is part of the game and sometimes happens unintentionally, but your original post made it sound like you intentionally peg people whenever you feel they are trying to "game" you...and it sounded like an everyday thing.
I'm glad that since then, you have further clarified. I mean, at least you say sorry .

I think that if you're playing for money, anything goes, but c'mon it's just league man. No matter how "high-level" this league is, at the end of the day it's just for fun. I am only a 4.5, not a touring pro, but still, as someone else mentioned, hitting the ball straight at me will only result in a simple drop volley out of your reach.

As far as intentionally going after someone regularly.... well as Key would say, C'mon Man!

[stapletonj]

"Sometimes when I practice I have my wife stand next to the court and scream ethnic epithets at me. I've also had her wave foreign flags when I'm trying to serve.

Now that's one supportive wife "

Nah - that's just her idea of a good time. Think about it, screaming epithets and verbally abusing her husband when he hasn't done anyting wrong? IT's what wives live for!

[anantak2k]

I just had to deal with some major gamesmanship today. 90% of the people I come across here are so nice and friendly and seem to play to get better. But once in a while you come across a douch e bag who will do anything to get a win.

The person I was playing today was using all forms of gamesmanship. He seemed to deliberately make me wait minutes at a time in between my serves to begin with. Any ball near the line = out. At some point he was calling lobs that I hit without even looking back!!! What the heck... the worst was how he constantly yelled c'mon in the middle of the point and when I told him that's hindrance the guy starts swearing off about how he is not saying c'mon and that's just how his grunts sound...

That's blatantly lying to my face unless I am deaf. Anyway, I absolutely don't know how to deal with people like this and really let it effect my game. This is something I obviously need to work on. But it's very hard to because usually when you find a cheater like this, you never play with them again.

I come across people like this about 20% of the time in tournaments and for some reason I react to it by simply not even wanting to play this person anymore and I just want to get off the court ASAP. I want to change this attitude of mine and feed off this and motivate myself to play better but it never seems to work. I get motivated for a few points but then after having to constantly wait in between my serves I just completely lose motivation again.

I really can't be letting stuff like that bother me so much and just focus on my game but I have been finding it ridiculously difficult to do. In my mind I am always thinking this is just a 4.5 match, people are supposed to be playing to enjoy the game and improve. It's not like we are pros playing for money... I just can't seem to understand the need to win at any cost at this level.