Seriously about Twist serve

[SystemicAnomaly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTwCys9VkLQ&t=30s

Originally Posted by toly

I checked a lot of videos of different serves and different players. I failed to find any serve with rising ball.

Your examples are optical illusions.

Take another look at the video above. Note the position of the ball at contact with respect to the top of the frame at the 0:33 mark. After the ball has left the racquet, it moves upward out of the frame. The camera position does not move. How is this an illusion? If you can't find other examples, you just are not looking hard enough.

Not so sure that the image sequence from CharlieF is an optical illusion either. It's hard to say for sure. The camera position/perspective does not change. The ball appears to rising in this example. If anything, this camera perspective tends to disguise/minimize the amount that the ball is rising. If this was shot at an angle that is parallel to the court and close to the height of the contact, we would see that the ball actually rises more than this sequence of images would seem to indicate.

Granted, there are probably plenty of players who can hit a flat serve such that the ball starts to drop as soon as it leaves the racket. It may be something of a myth that the server must be 6'9" (206 cm) or taller to accomplish this. However, probably only a very small percentage of players can hit a twist or other kick serve that does not rise when leaving the racquet.

Your example that shows a twist serve, hit with a closed racquet face, with the ball falling as it leaves the racquet does not apply to most servers. For a kick/twist serve, I am not sure if it is possible to hit the ball with a closed face and have the ball rise. Many players may actually hit it with a neutral face or one that is somewhat open.

In his TWU article, Rod Cross claims that a kick serve must be hit at about 100 mph. This is not a requirement for hitting for hitting a kick serve at all. Most servers hit their kick serves well under 90 mph (even well under 80 mph). Clearly, the kick serve that he speaks of is one that very few players can actually hit. Rod later amended his stance on this and admitted the kick serves did not need to bit hit close to 100 mph.

Take a gander at the following video from Pat Dougherty (the "Serve Doctor"), who is a serving guru with the Bolletierri Tennis Academy. At the 1:24 mark in the video he says the ball must first go up and then come down sharply for an effective "sick kick".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds6CZ4qCXD4
.

[LeeD]

Rod guy is fooling himself.
That racket is vertical. That is NOT a twist serve. A twist serve, the rackethead is accelerating upwards, and a vertical racket has already done that. Like a topspin forehand, look at the angle of the racket as it contacts the ball. It's almost vertical, yes, but still RISING as it contacts the ball. That is what gives the ball it's topspin, like a topspin forehand.

[toly]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

Not so sure that the image sequence from CharlieF is an optical illusion either. It's hard to say for sure. The camera position/perspective does not change. The ball appears to rising in this example. If anything, this camera perspective tends to disguise/minimize the amount that the ball is rising. If this was shot at an angle that is parallel to the court and close to the height of the contact, we would see that the ball actually rises more than this sequence of images would seem to indicate.

Let's look at the next photos of Stosur kick serves.



Figure 10. Sam Stosur Kick Serve

Unfortunately every picture produces an illusion. Nevertheless, it seems that the ball falls after contact even in case of kick serve. IMO there is no way it rises in case of twist serve.

[Netspirit]

I guess it is possible for a ball to go slightly downwards. If the pace is significant, it may be able to clear the net before it descends too much, and if the spin is significant, it may curve into the service box.

I definitely cannot serve like this - it probably requires a huge jump, racket head speed and arm extension. Recreational folks would be better off trying to hit twist serves by brushing up the left side of the ball, not down the right side.

[toly]

Originally Posted by Netspirit

I guess it is possible for a ball to go slightly downwards. If the pace is significant, it may be able to clear the net before it descends too much, and if the spin is significant, it may curve into the service box.

I definitely cannot serve like this - it probably requires a huge jump, racket head speed and arm extension. Recreational folks would be better off trying to hit twist serves by brushing up the left side of the ball, not down the right side.

Even leeD can hit twist serve around 100mph. There should be no problem for you.

Here is nice video of Marco Chiudinelli Twist (or Kick?) serve - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RGuB1Wj_E.

I copied few frames from this video. Again optical illusion, it gives the impression the racquet moves faster than ball.


Figure 11. Marco Chiudinelli Twist Serve

[zapvor]

Originally Posted by Bowtiesarecool

It is my understanding that the kick serve bounces away as a result of how the ball deforms when hitting the ground at such a steep angle with heavy topspin. I have seen computer simulations of this effect, but can't remember where to find them.

that is whats happenening, but thats not the cause. its from teh spin you put on the ball from hitting it a certain way

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by toly

Let's look at the next photos of Stosur kick serves...

Figure 10. Sam Stosur Kick Serve

Unfortunately every picture produces an illusion. Nevertheless, it seems that the ball falls after contact even in case of kick serve. IMO there is no way it rises in case of twist serve.

I noticed that you ignored the original link that I provided that showed a rising ball on a kick serve. I know with absolute certainty that nearly every kick serve that I have hit for the past 20+ years has risen after contact. Many other serves that I have faced (4.0 to 5.5 level players) have a kick or twist serve that rises noticeably after contact. With a small % of these servers, it is not apparent if the ball rises or not.

Even Rod Cross talks about kick serves that rise (the "lob" kick serve he mentions is an example of this).
.

[jmnk]

@toly and @SystemicAnomaly - I think you are--both-- right, in a sense.

a) it is certainly possible to hit a twist (or a kick) serve that initially raises. This happens when the contact point, at least initially, is below the ball equator.

b) it is also possible to hit a twist (or a kick) serve that does not raise at all, but from the very beginning goes a bit downward. This happens when the contact point is above the ball equator.

for most of rec players it is certainly easier to do a). Pros can do b) as they can hit the ball so hard, and while jumping, that it will go over the net even though the trajectory is downward from the beginning.

What is not possible is to hit the ball above the equator (like from 10 to 2) and expect the ball to raise.

[toly]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

I noticed that you ignored the original link that I provided that showed a rising ball on a kick serve. I know with absolute certainty that nearly every kick serve that I have hit for the past 20+ years has risen after contact. Many other serves that I have faced (4.0 to 5.5 level players) have a kick or twist serve that rises noticeably after contact. With a small % of these servers, it is not apparent if the ball rises or not.

Even Rod Cross talks about kick serves that rise (the "lob" kick serve he mentions is an example of this).
.

I’m not ready to discuss optical distortion (maybe Chas Tennis can), that’s why I ignored your original link.

Originally Posted by jmnk

@toly and @SystemicAnomaly - I think you are--both-- right, in a sense.

a) it is certainly possible to hit a twist (or a kick) serve that initially raises. This happens when the contact point, at least initially, is below the ball equator.

b) it is also possible to hit a twist (or a kick) serve that does not raise at all, but from the very beginning goes a bit downward. This happens when the contact point is above the ball equator.

for most of rec players it is certainly easier to do a). Pros can do b) as they can hit the ball so hard, and while jumping, that it will go over the net even though the trajectory is downward from the beginning.

What is not possible is to hit the ball above the equator (like from 10 to 2) and expect the ball to raise.

Agreed, before this thread I thought the ball always rises after impact. It’s absolutely unbelievable pros can and practically constantly hit downward.

Btw, sureshs talked about this many times, but I didn’t pay any attention. I’m sorry.

[toly]

Here is Chiudinelli twist serve entire trajectory of the ball.


Figure 12. Twist serve - complete ball’s path

[LeeD]

That is HIS twist serve. YOU try some.
For me, I have to hit the ball higher than my strikepoint, to get the higher than shoulder level bounce.
Maybe HE can do it without hitting up. I know both my buds hit higher than their original contact point, to get the heavy loop and downward path for the high bounce.

[toly]

Originally Posted by LeeD

That is HIS twist serve. YOU try some.
For me, I have to hit the ball higher than my strikepoint, to get the higher than shoulder level bounce.
Maybe HE can do it without hitting up. I know both my buds hit higher than their original contact point, to get the heavy loop and downward path for the high bounce.

If your racquet is slightly open you cannot hit twist serve, right?

[LeeD]

Depends....
How high a bounce are you looking for? How high a net clearance?
I used to play a FlimFlam man (flea marketeer) around 60 years old who hit his twists so it cleared the net by easily 5', maybe more, ball going slow at maybe 50 mph, but bounced well over 6' high or higher at the baseline. His twist is impacted with a slightly open face.
Mine might be vertical face. I hit up a bit, contact point around 8'6" or slightly lower, ball clears the net by 3' or so, goes maybe 60 mph, and bounces between 5'6" to 6' high, but hardly ever higher (in 60 degree weather, DunlopHDChampHardcourt balls). Worm cement courts.
The last vid might be closed face, barely top of shoulder bounce, but much more ball speed, probably closer to 80 or possibly more.

[toly]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Depends....
How high a bounce are you looking for? How high a net clearance?
I used to play a FlimFlam man (flea marketeer) around 60 years old who hit his twists so it cleared the net by easily 5', maybe more, ball going slow at maybe 50 mph, but bounced well over 6' high or higher at the baseline. His twist is impacted with a slightly open face.
Mine might be vertical face. I hit up a bit, contact point around 8'6" or slightly lower, ball clears the net by 3' or so, goes maybe 60 mph, and bounces between 5'6" to 6' high, but hardly ever higher (in 60 degree weather, DunlopHDChampHardcourt balls). Worm cement courts.
The last vid might be closed face, barely top of shoulder bounce, but much more ball speed, probably closer to 80 or possibly more.

You definitely didn’t read post #1. Twist serve (bounce to the right for righties) theoretically and practically impossible to hit with vertical or slightly open racquet!!!

[LeeD]

Don't believe everything you read!
I KNOW how to hit AmericanTwist serves. The first guy I ever hit with at GoldenGatePark had the best twist serve YOU"VE ever seen. ArtLarsen.
My twists bounce about eye heights to a 6' tall player. My slices around bellybutton high, as does my flats. My topslice second serves bounce about armpit high.

[toly]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Don't believe everything you read!
I KNOW how to hit AmericanTwist serves. The first guy I ever hit with at GoldenGatePark had the best twist serve YOU"VE ever seen. ArtLarsen.
My twists bounce about eye heights to a 6' tall player. My slices around bellybutton high, as does my flats. My topslice second serves bounce about armpit high.

You are talking about topspin, kick serve, or whatever.
You miss the main idea of twist serve. Does the ball bounce to the left (lefty serve)?

[LeeD]

I know what a twist serve is, having hit with ArtLarsen in 1976.
My lefty twist on duece court usually lands near the intersect, kicks out to the left so the returner has both feet beyond the doubles alley as he contacts the ball. Most opponent's just hit a topspin shot to my feet as I approach service line position, so I have to half or low volley it into the ad side court.
RollieZalameda, who beat PeanutLouie in SanFrancisco's high school tennis championships, had a great high twist serve. He was No.2 for MissionHigh, and ended up No.4 at CanadaCollege his freshman year. Pea WON the CanadianOpen the following year, so she was no slouch.

[toly]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

I noticed that you ignored the original link that I provided that showed a rising ball on a kick serve. I know with absolute certainty that nearly every kick serve that I have hit for the past 20+ years has risen after contact. Many other serves that I have faced (4.0 to 5.5 level players) have a kick or twist serve that rises noticeably after contact. With a small % of these servers, it is not apparent if the ball rises or not.

Even Rod Cross talks about kick serves that rise (the "lob" kick serve he mentions is an example of this).
.

This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hGS0...feature=relmfu shows the same kick serve from different angles.


Figure 13. Kick serve from different angles

Fig. 13.1 illustrates that the ball trajectory is near to horizontal, but in fig. 13.2 you can see trajectory of the steep rising ball. So, a photo camera can deceive us drastically.

Here is this player fist serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYify...feature=relmfu.


Figure 14. Fist serve

The ball has "steep" going down trajectory.

I think pros mostly hit twist serve slightly downward, because of high speed of the ball (more 100mph), otherwise ball flies out, but most recreational players can hit the ball upward with lower speed.

[LeeD]

Well DUH....
Pros are not us.
We cannot swing fast enough upwards and outward to get the twist effect, so we slow down the ball, needing MORE arch, eh?
Pros also hit the serves 140mph and upwards. We don't.

[toly]

One more example, the same player hits slice serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33IYB...feature=relmfu.


Figure 15. Slice serve

The ball flies downward.