Running Forehands

[5263]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

Can you share your ideas on this shot about the technique and/or biomechanics? I don't know if a true western grip can execute this shot but for SW and E grips this is a very important shot. I'm trying to better understand its mechanics.

I think it's good to keep in mind that most are not really as powerful as they may
seem.
Often they are passing shots or hitting to an open slice of court with more of a
quick squirt thru than major mph. Not saying that there are not some big ones
hit at times, but imo that is not the norm on this shot.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by tricky

The backswing as well. On the FH swing, the pendulum takeback gives you a very high elbow position, and it lets you sling the racquet at the ball. It lets you drive through the ball cleanly, yet have a true reverse finish.

No. There is no pendulum movement on any backswing. A pendulum is when a weight is suspended up at a pivot point and swings down freely from gravity to establish equilibrium. The high racquet prep at the end of the takeback is the suspension and pivot. The downward and then forward movement is the pendulum action. This occurs after the takeback. The momentum from the fall of the racquet is transferred into the ball.

There's a mechanical reason why. Most torso rotation is there to load the up-down-up motion of the swing (shoulder abduction.)

No. Loading is done from the legs and the energy is transferred from the ground up to the torso and then arms. Torso rotation has nothing to do with up / down motion. Rotation just delivers rotational energy/ momentum into the ball.

It requires really good footwork. You have to shift your weight over the outside of your foot while suppressing sideways lean with the trunk. To do that, this may require you to significantly lower and widen your base.

Not really. You only need to time it so that you strike the ball while stepping on the left foot and remaining sideways.
It doesn't require 'really good footwork' or any complicated footwork pattern. You should step on the left foot because it gives the stable base and it keeps you sideways and doesn't interfere with a sideways shot as a right foot step would. Also if you're not running all out and you step with the left you have a chance to then plant your right foot for recovery. If not on the next step then you can do it on the one after that and it will be natural because you hit off the left.

[tricky]

A pendulum is when a weight is suspended up at a pivot point and swings down freely from gravity to establish equilibrium.

For the running FH, it helps to use a pendulum motion in the takeback. The elbow is brought down initially, which causes it to rise in the takeback and above the racquet. Again, this helps to load the shoulder so that the forward swing does not need to go across the body. It's not that different from how traditional BHs are taught, except that it's just one hand and on the FH wing.

The gravity explanation is a popular one to explain the C or reverse forehand, but even in situations where the racquet path is not especially high, you get a lot of power. It's again due to how the specific technique enables you to actually drive through the ball from a full run.

Torso rotation has nothing to do with up / down motion. Rotation just delivers rotational energy/ momentum into the ball.

Let me clarify -- the upper torso/trunk rotation mostly loads and set up the circular aspect of the loop. This is because, for the loop to occur (shoulder abduction), the arm must move away from the right side of the body. However, this is difficult when you're also running to your right. Using a pendulum motion (or starting the takeback by dipping the racquet) reduces the need to do this.

Also if you're not running all out and you step with the left you have a chance to then plant your right foot for recovery.

I understand. The technique I'm describing is about executing a running FH from a near-full run.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by tricky

For the running FH, it helps to use a pendulum motion in the takeback. The elbow is brought down initially, which causes it to rise in the takeback and above the racquet. Again, this helps to load the shoulder so that the forward swing does not need to go across the body. It's not that different from how traditional BHs are taught, except that it's just one hand and on the FH wing.

Oh i see what you mean.

Hmm... I don't see why you would want to bring the racquet down first and then up instead of just up. Bringing the racquet down first will not load the shoulder any more then starting it high. The 'amount of load' is determined by the height of the racquet at the pivot point and not by any amount of down first action.

Also it seems that bringing the racquet down first and then up and then back down would be more time consuming and subject to more errors then just prepping high first.

I don't see any pros doing this down/up/down motion for a running fh. Do you know anyone who does it this way so that I can check out it on utube?

[Cheetah]

Here's a sampras running fh. He doesn't have any down motion first. Just up and back and then down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxhE3M3Tzbo&t=3s

same with nadal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm5Voz_xjoU&t=20s

Agassi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FnZBt6hiNE

Li Na:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIZeMcl3ffQ

Fed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWwiqsI7duk

[tricky]

Hmm... I don't see why you would want to bring the racquet down first and then up instead of just up.

When you initially bring the racquet down, it actually goes up in the takeback regardless. This is because you're causing the front shoulder to dip and the back shoulder to rise. You don't need to consciously lift the racquet into a loop -- it happens naturally as you take the racquet back. Main thing is whether the elbow starts above the racquet at beginning of takeback. That's one tell that somebody's using a pendulum takeback.

The main reason for doing this is to prevent the need to swing across the body. When you execute a traditional loop, it starts with the arm moving away from the side of your body. Your swing is loaded to do that. If you then try to execute a forward swing in a C-loop (without the arm coming across), you'll notice that the contact point is brought in and that the swing doesn't drive through. With a pendulum takeback, it lets you swing all the way through. Downside with a pendulum takeback is that you have less power on high bouncing shots and less spin variation.

[Cheetah]

Ok. I see what you're saying and can see how that's possible.

So we have the same general ideas. pendulum swing, remain sideways etc.

Thanks

[tricky]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Ok. I see what you're saying and can see how that's possible.

So we have the same general ideas. pendulum swing, remain sideways etc.

Thanks

Yup, I think so!

[Cheetah]

I do know what you're talking about with how the contact point is brought in with the prep as how I described it. I'm going to try the pendulum takeback next time to see the difference.

[TennisA]

Huh... did not know you needed to use close-stance for a running forehand... Might explain why I get only one of those in every 10+ times I go for it.

[vil]

For these shots you haven't got time to position yourself to an open stance. You still somehow have to rotate your upper trunk vs shoulders to finish off the follow through while your lower part faces the side fence.

[Cheetah]

no trunk or shoulder rotation necessary. the finish of the arm/racquet is on the same side of the body. no swing across.

[toly]

Is this running forehand?

[Cheetah]

good images

[vil]

That's a great set of images. No12 is exactly what I meant. Lower part facing direction of run (we say side fence) and look at his upper body....

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by vil

That's a great set of images. No12 is exactly what I meant. Lower part facing direction of run (we say side fence) and look at his upper body....

got it.
.....

[sabala]

Was testing out a new camera and caught myself with a running FH and a bit of a running BH too. Start on outside leg, swinging as inside leg comes across to balance. Contact seems to be as legs cross position?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgoGuubQGyM#t=2m55s

I try not to think about what I'm actually doing though, lol -

[boramiNYC]

toly thanks for the nice images. and thanks for discussion. it seems the forward swing is most of the times initiated with weight on right foot while running and contact in between the steps or closer to the left foot landing and above the head follow thru. I think this allows contact point to be as late as possible for more time. and it seems there is weight transfer that propels the forward swing big time.

and I swear I've seen Djok swing straight across the body while executing one of these.

maybe there also is some torso rotation which is abruptly stopped by left leg extending forward.

[Greg G]

One thing that struck me watching the running forehand video on virtual tennis academy- the running forehand has to be hit with intent. The goal is to make the other guy hit while moving too. If you just hit it to the center, the point is practically over. So you have to hurt him back with it. The target given was the crosscourt shot that pulls him out of court. Smart targets, if you will.

Plus the high percentage shot for him will be to hit it back crosscourt, where you are. Easier recovery.

Now if only I could do what I just typed

[tricky]

and I swear I've seen Djok swing straight across the body while executing one of these.

In 2011, Joker had the best running FH in the game. Del Potro gets more velocity, but nobody hits more winners on the run off both wings. It was as if Joker deliberately waited until he was on the run to go for the killshot.