Annual flu shot bashing thread - 2012

[beernutz]

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/flushot.htm

[Talker]

When you dissect the “science,” you’ll quickly discover that the flu vaccine is not only extremely ineffective, but its necessity is overrated, and studies of safety are lacking.

But it's good some are getting the vaccine, we need these people to test it out for us.

http://vactruth.com/2012/09/22/no-flu-shot-no-job/

[pvaudio]

Originally Posted by LeeD

In other words, you are willing to sacrifice a few for the good of the many.

I don't know where you get your information, but you must have read it backwards. The number of people who die from the flu every year is astounding. The number of people who die from the flu vaccine every year are coincidental cases. People over 65 are the ones who need protection from live influenza the most since without the antibodies already present, they're less likely to be strong enough to fight off the virus. In other words, you saying that the elderly are the most at risk of dying from the vaccine is likely true, but along the same line, they're the most likely to contract and die if they even get a mild strain of live influenza virus.

To those of you saying you got the flu vaccine and felt terrible for a day or so, you had nothing close to the flu. Even these days, unless you're hopped up on as many NSAIDs as you can take within a reasonable period, you will be too weak to be walking around. I once took an exam freshman year as I was coming down with the flu. It was in February, and I went to the test wearing two under armours, a coat, tights, pants and a sweatshirt because my chills were that ferocious. After walking to the test and back, I was so destroyed that my roomate ended up calling my parents who took me out of school for four days. That's normalfor the flu, not just feeling sick and going to wal-mart for some tylenol and kleenex.

So yes Lee, by your logic, I would gladly sacrifice a few to keep tens of thousands from dying as they do each year.

The MMWR study also found that during seasons when influenza A (H3N2) viruses were prominent death rates were more than double what they were during seasons when influenza A (H1N1) or influenza B viruses predominated. In addition, the study confirmed previous findings that about 90% of influenza associated deaths occur among adults 65 years and older.

[tennisenthusiast]

Originally Posted by r2473

A doctor told me this "joke" a while back"


A man walks into the pharmacy and tells his pharmacist, "Doc, I have a terrible flu, what can you give me to make me feel better".

Pharmacist replies, "You don't have the flu, you have a cold".

Man asks, "How do you know that".

Pharmacist replies, "Because you're here".


Point being, when you have the flu (instead of a cold), you aren't up walking around. It really knocks you on your *****.

The further point is that people often mistake a (bad) cold for the flu.

I am a healthy adult in my early 30s. I have never been sick even with a cold until I got flu in late 2010. It took the --- out of me. I was pretty sure at that time that it was not a simple cold because I couldn't even wake up from the bed and I have never been in that situation before.

For me the peace of mind outweighs the risk of getting flu and ever since 2010 I have been taking flu shots.

That's all.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Suresh. Every year, the flu shot KILL dozens of senior citizens. That is also well documented, and presented on Channel 4 news several times in the last 10 years.
The shot itself doesn't kill anyone. BUT, the effects of the shot, taking part of the immune system to combat the effects of the shot does, as it weakens the total immune system at a period of time when it's needed to fight off other diseases.
Say you're in old fart. OK, not U, but me. I have maybe 60% of the total resistance and immunity power of you. I'm old. I'm injured. I'm sick. I'm out of shape. I don't get regular exercise.
Now shoot me up with disease. Since I have only 60% to fight with, just combatting the new stuff you introduced into my body takes half of that. Now I have only THIRTY percent to fight off the germs that are already present in my body!
GET IT?
You don't, those stupid "experts" don't.
Remember, your scientists are so STUPID, they take a 103 year old sturgeon who lived in fresh water all it's life (LakeSonoma in Cal.), dump it into salt water, and it dies in ONE day!
For every 10 scientists, we need 10 people with COMMON SENSE.

Uummm... you do get that influenza vaccines are not live virus vaccines, right?

[LeeD]

Hmm, you DO get that introducing anything into your system that takes away some immunity you might need to live fight off what you already have is a sure sign of KILLING YOU, like execution, don't you?
All you guys who favor this vaccination are young. Wait till YOU are old, then let's see how YOU feel about it.
In your 30's, you're invincible. In your 60's, you're ONE small mistake from the grave.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Hmm, you DO get that introducing anything into your system that takes away some immunity you might need to live fight off what you already have is a sure sign of KILLING YOU, like execution, don't you?
All you guys who favor this vaccination are young. Wait till YOU are old, then let's see how YOU feel about it.
In your 30's, you're invincible. In your 60's, you're ONE small mistake from the grave.

Like getting the flu when it was preventable

[LeeD]

Yeah, or maybe like getting the flu when it was avoidable.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Hmm, you DO get that introducing anything into your system that takes away some immunity you might need to live fight off what you already have is a sure sign of KILLING YOU, like execution, don't you?
All you guys who favor this vaccination are young. Wait till YOU are old, then let's see how YOU feel about it.
In your 30's, you're invincible. In your 60's, you're ONE small mistake from the grave.

And you're naive enough to think that dead virus particles, along with random flotsam and jetsam of various immunogenic activity gain entry into your body mostly through vaccination?

[beernutz]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

And you're naive enough to think that dead virus particles, along with random flotsam and jetsam of various immunogenic activity gain entry into your body mostly through vaccination?

This is LeeD you're talking about here. Surely this is a rhetorical question?

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by beernutz

This is LeeD you're talking about here. Surely this is a rhetorical question?

I happen to believe you CAN teach an old dog new tricks...

[LeeD]

Look, you genuis's....
Studies are used to promote the stuff they're trying to use on you, so they can make even MORE money.
Studies can be manipulated to achieve any result they want.
For once, try using your brains.
Say you have 500 antibodies working for you right now. For an elderly person, who might be sick, he has maybe 300 of 'em.
Now introduce your vaccination shot, and it takes 100 of 'em to fight it, figure it out, do whatever is needed... meanwhile, only 200 to fight off other diseases, sicknesses, whatever is already wrong thru age.
Maybe YOU can afford 100 to deal with the vaccination shot, but old farts only have 200 left, not enough to deal with everyday problems.
You might be great with books, with research, but you don't know logic and living.

[sureshs]

I don't think it is a zero sum game

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Look, you genuis's....
Studies are used to promote the stuff they're trying to use on you, so they can make even MORE money.
Studies can be manipulated to achieve any result they want.
For once, try using your brains.
Say you have 500 antibodies working for you right now. For an elderly person, who might be sick, he has maybe 300 of 'em.
Now introduce your vaccination shot, and it takes 100 of 'em to fight it, figure it out, do whatever is needed... meanwhile, only 200 to fight off other diseases, sicknesses, whatever is already wrong thru age.
Maybe YOU can afford 100 to deal with the vaccination shot, but old farts only have 200 left, not enough to deal with everyday problems.
You might be great with books, with research, but you don't know logic and living.

If your bolded statement was correct, then I certainly hope you are not arguing that random citizens without specialty training in the subject involved have superior expertise when compared to those who do. Or to put it another way, whatever the bias involved in University research, and I agree with you that it is not zero, certainly the bias/error of random Tennis Warehouse posters is at least an order of magnitude greater.

As to the rest of your post, I'll use your nomenclature:

If you have 500 antibodies available to you right now, it is because of the 900 total antibodies you have, 400 are being used for various random antigens that enter your body all day, every single day from an infinite number of sources. True, you could use 5 of the 500 to deal with your flu shot (and increase the number being used to 405), but the benefit that the corrupt and money-driven evil Pharma Empire tricks us into thinking exists is felt to be worth that limited drop. Remember antibodies by their nature are extremely specific, that's why it is ridiculous to suppose that some high percentage of your antibodies would respond to a single exposure. For example, your chickenpox antibodies don't care if you are exposed to a cold sore, different virus, different antibodies.

[clutch21]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

If your bolded statement was correct, then I certainly hope you are not arguing that random citizens without specialty training in the subject involved have superior expertise when compared to those who do. Or to put it another way, whatever the bias involved in University research, and I agree with you that it is not zero, certainly the bias/error of random Tennis Warehouse posters is at least an order of magnitude greater.

As to the rest of your post, I'll use your nomenclature:

If you have 500 antibodies available to you right now, it is because of the 900 total antibodies you have, 400 are being used for various random antigens that enter your body all day, every single day from an infinite number of sources. True, you could use 5 of the 500 to deal with your flu shot (and increase the number being used to 405), but the benefit that the corrupt and money-driven evil Pharma Empire tricks us into thinking exists is felt to be worth that limited drop. Remember antibodies by their nature are extremely specific, that's why it is ridiculous to suppose that some high percentage of your antibodies would respond to a single exposure. For example, your chickenpox antibodies don't care if you are exposed to a cold sore, different virus, different antibodies.

To add to this, antibodies are not even produced until T&B cells contact the foreign antigen. Theoretically, for every antigen there is a T cell and a B cell that fit it like a lock & key.

Once an antigen (say the flu vaccine) enters your body and matches up with the correct T&B cell then an immune response is mounted. One aspect of that immune response among others is the production of antibodies by B cells. Thus antibodies are not even produced until exposure to that given antigen.

As LuckyR said, an antibody is specific to a given antigen. That is, a certain antibody can't be used to fight anything else besides the antigen that led to its production. Therefore, at least in theory, the flu vaccine doesn't hinder an individuals immune response to other antigens.

[Talker]

This guy among others have a strong viewpoint.


Confirmed! Flu Vaccine INCREASES Risk of Serious Pandemic Flu Illness

The Canadian press recently broke the story that new research confirms initial findings that the flu vaccine appeared to actually increase people's risk of getting sick with H1N1, and cause more serious bouts of illness to boot.
According to the Vancouver Sun:1

"Researchers, led by Vancouver's Dr. Danuta Skowronski, an influenza expert at the B.C. Centre for Disease Control, noticed in the early weeks of the [2009 H1N1] pandemic that people who got a flu shot for the 2008-09 winter seemed to be more likely to get infected with the pandemic virus than people who hadn't received a flu shot. Five studies done in several provinces showed the same unsettling results."

And the article:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...u-illness.aspx

[Cindysphinx]

No flu shot for me, now or ever. Sureshs, you can have my dose.

You're welcome!

[SoBad]

I'd rather get medical advice from a lawyer than a doctor. No vaccines for me unless required by law. Or should I fight the required ones?

[Soul]

I've had good luck at avoiding a cold by taking vitamin D3 for several years at this point, keeping a testing level of around 50ng/ml. For that I have not felt a need for the flu shot. Don't believe the flu shot a bad idea. Do sometimes wonder how well it works from my observation of those that receive the shot. Seems many still come down with a cold over winter. But found what works well for me, and pleased about that.

I've read others reporting the same with D3.

"Unique vitamin D observations"

http://blog.trackyourplaque.com/2009...ervations.html

From the article:

...–Immunity from viral infections–I first learned of this association from Dr. John Cannell of the Vitamin D Council (www.vitamindcouncil.com). Dr. Cannell recounts his experience with the 2006 flu epidemic in the hospital in northern California, where he is a psychiatrist charged with the health of 200 inpatients held in closed wards. While the flu spread like wildfire to the patients in all the other wards, the 200 patients in Dr. Cannell’s ward failed to contract a single episode of flu while taking 2000 units of vitamin D per day.

I was a little skeptical at first, having been disappointed by the failure of several nutritional agents like zinc, vitamin C (perhaps, at best, a minimal effect). Now, three years into my vitamin D experience, I am absolutely convinced that Dr. Cannells’ early observation was correct: Vitamin D enhances immunity enormously. Not only have I personally not had a virus in several years, the majority of my staff and patients have been happily free of viral infections. There have been a few, to be sure. But the usual winters of hacking, coughing, and sneezing in the office have become largely a memory. It is a rare person who comes to the office with viral symptoms.

[XFactorer]

Gawd, I love how distrust in science, especially in science-based medicine, is showing its ugly head in this thread!