Who was Lendl's biggest rival?

[Gizo]

Originally Posted by kiki

Lets be fair.Ivan skipped grass till 83

Lendl didn't completely skip grass until 1983. He played at Wimbledon from 1979-1981 without much success, losing early to Aussie players each time. In 1981 he lost to the qualifier Charlie Fancutt in 5 sets in the 1st round, the last time he would lose in the 1st round of a major until 1993.

During that initial period he struggled a lot on the surface.

The only year he skipped Wimbledon was in 1982 (and famously so), and he was rightly criticised for that. He didn't have the right attitude towards grass court tennis back then, but he quickly saw the error of his ways, and from 1983 he was fully dedicated towards trying to win Wimbledon.

Overall he had a much better attitude towards grass court tennis than Connors did to European clay court tennis I would say, not to mention better results.

[chrischris]

Originally Posted by Gizo

Lendl didn't completely skip grass until 1983. He played at Wimbledon from 1979-1981 without much success, losing early to Aussie players each time. In 1981 he lost to the qualifier Charlie Fancutt in 5 sets in the 1st round, the last time he would lose in the 1st round of a major until 1993.

During that initial period he struggled a lot on the surface.

The only year he skipped Wimbledon was in 1982 (and famously so), and he was rightly criticised for that. He didn't have the right attitude towards grass court tennis back then, but he quickly saw the error of his ways, and from 1983 he was fully dedicated towards trying to win Wimbledon.

Overall he had a much better attitude towards grass court tennis than Connors did to European clay court tennis I would say, not to mention better results.

Connors was a homeboy and a great one too.

[Ramon]

Originally Posted by chrischris

Connors was a homeboy and a great one too.

He was. He didn't like Europe too much, but not everyone does. LOL

The US Open was played on green clay in 75-77. All three years, Connors was in the final and in 76 he beat Vilas and Borg to win it. Vilas was in his prime. Borg was young, but he did win Wimbledon that year, so he was extremely formidable. Borg and Vilas were great on green clay, and they played a lot of tune-ups on green clay. I don't see why people are diminishing that as an accomplishment. I suppose some people can't be satisfied with anything.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Ramon

He was. He didn't like Europe too much, but not everyone does. LOL

The US Open was played on green clay in 75-77. All three years, Connors was in the final and in 76 he beat Vilas and Borg to win it. Vilas was in his prime. Borg was young, but he did win Wimbledon that year, so he was extremely formidable. Borg and Vilas were great on green clay, and they played a lot of tune-ups on green clay. I don't see why people are diminishing that as an accomplishment. I suppose some people can't be satisfied with anything.

It is curious I was thinking about american players who played a lot in Europe and alsp Australia and South Africa.Budge Patty, a kind of Hemingway in tennis shorts lived many years at Paris and Dibbs, Solomon, Gottfried and Gene Mayer played a lot there.

Mac used to play a lot in Europe (indoors and grass season) but my pick is Vitas Gerulaitis whose family came from Lithuania and every year he spent lot of time in Europe. Clay,grass and indoors he played it all, and also played the aussie and SAF events

Nobody was more international than Gerulaitis which fits great with his cosmopolitan image

And nobody was only US focused as Connors and Tanner were

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Gizo

Lendl didn't completely skip grass until 1983. He played at Wimbledon from 1979-1981 without much success, losing early to Aussie players each time. In 1981 he lost to the qualifier Charlie Fancutt in 5 sets in the 1st round, the last time he would lose in the 1st round of a major until 1993.

During that initial period he struggled a lot on the surface.

The only year he skipped Wimbledon was in 1982 (and famously so), and he was rightly criticised for that. He didn't have the right attitude towards grass court tennis back then, but he quickly saw the error of his ways, and from 1983 he was fully dedicated towards trying to win Wimbledon.

Overall he had a much better attitude towards grass court tennis than Connors did to European clay court tennis I would say, not to mention better results.

Lendl lost to old fart Dibley in 1980 and unknown Fancutt in 81 but I can' t recall who beat him in 79
Dupre beat him at 1980 AO over a tough 5 setter

[kiki]

Originally Posted by chrischris

Connors was a homeboy and a great one too.

IMO the toughest rival for Jimbo in 82 may have been Vilas who beat him at 2 indoor finals in Spring
1982 not only saw Connors revival but also Vilas revival and both players freed from their conqueror Borg!!!

What a terrific year!!! Mac and Lendl struggling to take Borg' s crown, who found a heritier at Wilander and two classics dominating the tour!!
Vilas beat twice Connors and twice Lendl at great tournament finals and barely lost to Wilander at RG final and at the end of the year lost to Connors at the US Open semis, to Macat the Masters semis and to his former owner Lendl at the Detroit WCT winter finals
That was the effect of Borg's retirement
Vilas and Connors took Ivan and Mac role and Wilander squeezed into
A memorable season by any means

[jrepac]

Originally Posted by Gizo

Even Sampras who was clearly not as good at Connors on clay, was able to win a big title on Euro red clay.


LOL miserable on grass that is hilarious and shows a huge lack of perspective. He looked excellent on grass from 1983-1990, when he reached the final 4 at Wimbledon or better every year apart from 1985, losing to elite grass court players or dangerous shotmakers every year. He also looked excellent on grass when he beat Edberg at Wimbledon in 1987 and crushed Becker in the 1990 Queen's final (grass court perfection according to Dan Maskell).

If Lendl was miserable on grass, how would you describe Connors on the red clay at RG, absolutely useless?

And if Lendl was miserable on grass, why did he win 2 more titles on it than Connors was ever able to win on red clay?

Lendl was better at serve-volleying at Wimbledon than Connors was at handling the higher bounce, slower pace and different footwork requirements on the RG clay.

I'd like to put Lendl's winning percentage on grass up against Connors winning percentage on clay (red, green and both). Similar? Vastly different? Would be interesting to compare.

It's an unknown obviously, but if he had played the Euro circuit with more regularity, he might have won an event or two. He just did not put the effort into it....aside from a few attempts in the late '80s when he was well past his prime.

Lendl never looked comfortable on grass...it always looked forced for him...even when he was winning. And, I agree, Connors never looked totally comfortable on red clay. Both could be effective on those surfaces....sometimes. Connors dealt with "high bounces" by cutting them off when and where he could....no big question to answer there...Lendl took to serve and volley on grass, naturally taking advantage of his marvelous serve. Both had ways of coping.

[jrepac]

Originally Posted by kiki

IMO the toughest rival for Jimbo in 82 may have been Vilas who beat him at 2 indoor finals in Spring
1982 not only saw Connors revival but also Vilas revival and both players freed from their conqueror Borg!!!

What a terrific year!!! Mac and Lendl struggling to take Borg' s crown, who found a heritier at Wilander and two classics dominating the tour!!
Vilas beat twice Connors and twice Lendl at great tournament finals and barely lost to Wilander at RG final and at the end of the year lost to Connors at the US Open semis, to Macat the Masters semis and to his former owner Lendl at the Detroit WCT winter finals
That was the effect of Borg's retirement
Vilas and Connors took Ivan and Mac role and Wilander squeezed into
A memorable season by any means

Vilas had a very good 1982, this is true. He kind of faded after that.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by jrepac

Vilas had a very good 1982, this is true. He kind of faded after that.

How free both felt after their owner Borg retired!!!
While Mac and somehow Lendl could match the swede but got surpassed by the motivation and drive of Connors and Vilas

[dangalak]

So can we conclude it was McEnroe?

[Ramon]

Originally Posted by dangalak

So can we conclude it was McEnroe?

Heck no! We went over this at length already. We will not get a consensus on anyone, and if we had a survey I don't think Mac would be on top of this list. Mac was a pushover early on, then he figured him out later, but it didn't last long enough because he left the game early for personal reasons and was never the same after that.

[TMF]

Originally Posted by kiki

Margaret Court dominated fields against true champions like Bueno,King,Cawley,Evert and young Navratilova not comparable with the current weak fields
IMO it is the same analogy to Laver who had to play Rosewall,Hoad,Gonzales, Newcombe,Asheand Nastase to name a few
Like Laver in Federer era, Court would have doubled her records in case she played the current field

[Gizo]

Originally Posted by jrepac

I'd like to put Lendl's winning percentage on grass up against Connors winning percentage on clay (red, green and both). Similar? Vastly different? Would be interesting to compare.

It's an unknown obviously, but if he had played the Euro circuit with more regularity, he might have won an event or two. He just did not put the effort into it....aside from a few attempts in the late '80s when he was well past his prime.

Lendl never looked comfortable on grass...it always looked forced for him...even when he was winning. And, I agree, Connors never looked totally comfortable on red clay. Both could be effective on those surfaces....sometimes. Connors dealt with "high bounces" by cutting them off when and where he could....no big question to answer there...Lendl took to serve and volley on grass, naturally taking advantage of his marvelous serve. Both had ways of coping.

I think that Lendl's % on grass was 76.4% (81-25) and Connor's overall % on clay was 78.6% (195-93). I don't have a clue about Connor's red clay/green clay percentages though. At Wimbledon Lendl's winning % was 77.4% (48-14). Connors's % at RG was 75.5% (40-13)

Lendl and Connors were both versatile, all-court players. Obviously Lendl was not as good a volleyer as McEnroe, Edberg, Becker, Cash etc, but he was still very strong at the net (there were also many matches on clay when he came to the net a lot and had excellent percentages there as well), and his sliced backhand was also very good. His main problem on grass was his return of serve, especially the backhand return which can be a problem for one handers. The backhand return was a crucial reason why guys like Stich and Krajicek were able to win a Wimbledon title (for Stich it was a natural strength, and Krajicek worked hard to improve his). Lendl's return just wasn't quite good enough in a big Wimbledon match against a powerful server.

In a big game at RG Connors could often get frustrated and lack the patience needed to endure all of those long rallies and points.

Still I preferred those days when most of the great players still had a major missing link, as opposed to nowadays when it is easier to win them all with more similar surfaces and 32 seeds. Thankfully Djokovic didn't win RG this year as 3 players completing the full set within 3 years would have been ridiculous.

[Gizo]

Originally Posted by kiki

Lendl lost to old fart Dibley in 1980 and unknown Fancutt in 81 but I can' t recall who beat him in 79
Dupre beat him at 1980 AO over a tough 5 setter

Peter McNamara beat him in the 1st round in 1979. Lendl sure did suck on grass in those early days, but then again if weren't brought up on the surface it could be a nightmare to play on. At least he soon adapted though.

Originally Posted by dangalak

So can we conclude it was McEnroe?

Well to me it is clearly McEnroe. Their first 26 matches were all played when Mac was at his prime. Yes he was excellent throughout most of 1985 up to that year's US Open final which he was heavily favoured to win.

During that period their h2h was 14-12 in Mac's favour overall, 2-1 in Lendl's favour in slam finals, 4-3 in Lendl's favour in overall slam matches, and 8-6 in Lendl's favour in matches at the blue chip events (slams, Masters, WCT finals and Davis Cup). In their 10 biggest matches during that period; their 3 slam finals, 2 slam semi-finals, 3 Masters finals and 2 WCT finals, they both had 5 wins each.

Basically they played each other a lot on the biggest stage, and split wins very evenly, both in their most important matches, and in all their matches overall.

Their 1984 RG final is one of the greatest slam finals of all-time in terms of quality of tennis and drama. Mac didn't choke that match away in the slightest, contrary to what he and journalists (who have admitted that they haven't re-watched the match since it was aired) have said.

The main problem is that because McEnroe hated Lendl so much for so many years and didn't view him as a worthy adversary, he refused to admit that a rivalry between them even existed. However it did and in recent years he has finally started to give Lendl more credit. Mac should have have been proud that he had 3 fantastic rivalries against other great players.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Gizo

Peter McNamara beat him in the 1st round in 1979. Lendl sure did suck on grass in those early days, but then again if weren't brought up on the surface it could be a nightmare to play on. At least he soon adapted though.



Well to me it is clearly McEnroe. Their first 26 matches were all played when Mac was at his prime. Yes he was excellent throughout most of 1985 up to that year's US Open final which he was heavily favoured to win.

During that period their h2h was 14-12 in Mac's favour overall, 2-1 in Lendl's favour in slam finals, 4-3 in Lendl's favour in overall slam matches, and 8-6 in Lendl's favour in matches at the blue chip events (slams, Masters, WCT finals and Davis Cup). In their 10 biggest matches during that period; their 3 slam finals, 2 slam semi-finals, 3 Masters finals and 2 WCT finals, they both had 5 wins each.

Basically they played each other a lot on the biggest stage, and split wins very evenly, both in their most important matches, and in all their matches overall.

Their 1984 RG final is one of the greatest slam finals of all-time in terms of quality of tennis and drama. Mac didn't choke that match away in the slightest, contrary to what he and journalists (who have admitted that they haven't re-watched the match since it was aired) have said.

The main problem is that because McEnroe hated Lendl so much for so many years and didn't view him as a worthy adversary, he refused to admit that a rivalry between them even existed. However it did and in recent years he has finally started to give Lendl more credit. Mac should have have been proud that he had 3 fantastic rivalries against other great players.

Good post, while Lendl had big rivalries with Becker,Wilander,Connors,Vilas,Clerc,Noah and Cash his rivalry with Mac may have been the greatest in the greatest ever era for rivalries
Unfortunately his potential big rivalries vs Borg,Edberg,Mecir and Agassi as well as his formet one vs Panatta never developed their full potential even if provided some breathtaking matches

[Gizo]

It's just a shame that their US Open matches weren't more competitive. Their 1980 QF went to 4 sets but all their other 4 matches there were all straight sets wins one way or another.

Super Saturday definately had a negative effect on the quality of their two US Open finals. In 1984 both semi-finals were all time classic matches, probably two of the greatest grand slam semi-finals of all-time. However Lendl's tough 5 set win over Cash in the day time heat, and then Mac's 5 set victory over Connors in that amazing midnight madness bonanza, left them both spent and exhausted for the final the next day.

Then in 1985 Mac's 5 set SF win over Wilander in the brutal heat took so much out of him before the final.

I wish there could have been at least one Mac-Connors US Open final during their careers. That would be have great to watch.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by TMF

Truth is the only thing of which we can be certain in this existence

[jrepac]

Originally Posted by Gizo

I think that Lendl's % on grass was 76.4% (81-25) and Connor's overall % on clay was 78.6% (195-93). I don't have a clue about Connor's red clay/green clay percentages though. At Wimbledon Lendl's winning % was 77.4% (48-14). Connors's % at RG was 75.5% (40-13)
.

Thanks for the stats; shocking how close the win %s are for them on their least favorite surfaces. An "awful" 75pct ++++.....LOL. Despite some shortcomings on these surfaces, both were winning the overwhelming majority of their matches.

It's obvious that there were elements of their games that made them much more effective on the flip side of the equation (i.e., connors on grass, Lendl on clay)...and it's seen in their head to heads where they clearly trounced each other on those surfaces.

[blackfrido]

[Gizo]

^ Yes Lendl and Clerc did have a pretty entertaining rivalry.

1981 was probably the best year of their rivalry, with Clerc winning 3 out of their 5 matches that year. Clerc beat Lendl in their semi-final at Rome, en-route to winning the title. Then in their RG semi 2 weeks later Lendl came from 2 sets to 1 down to win in 5 sets, with Clerc having beaten Connors in 5 sets in the previous round. In the summer Clerc beat Lendl twice on the US green clay, in the semis at North Conway and the final at Indianapolis (probably one of the biggest green clay events on the tour at the time along with Forest Hills). Then in the fall Clerc reached the final at Basel where Lendl destroyed him.

Clerc also had a very good h2h record against McEnroe (5-6), with them playing each other 4 times in live Davis Cup matches from 1980-1984. Clerc beat Mac in a 6 hour 4 set match in 1980 and in 5 sets in 1983, both on the clay at Buenos Aires. Mac beat Clerc in 5 sets in the 1981 final and in straight sets in 1984, both on carpet in the US.

With his shotmaking ability and power plus his strong records against such great players, I think he is the most talented player of the open era never to have reached a slam/major final.

Lendl also had a pretty entertaining rivalry with Vilas on clay, winning 7 out of their 12 matches on the surface. Significantly Lendl travelled to Argentina and beat Vilas twice in big matches in Buenos Aires, in the 1980 Davis Cup semi-final (he also beat Clerc in the decisive 4th rubber), and in the 1981 Buenos Aires final. Lendl also beat Vilas in the 1980 and 1981 Barcelona finals, while a resurgent Vilas beat him in the finals at Madrid and Monte-Carlo in 1982, and the semis of Hamburg in 1980.