would pulling the strings twice be better than pre stretching?

[Irvin]

Like I thought you're assuming what he insinuated when he did not really insinuate anything.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by Irvin

To insinuate is to suggest or hint something in an indirect way. What did you mean (insinuate) when you said, "IF YOU DO THIS ON THE CROSSES?"

It would help if you read the OP:

Originally Posted by 2ndServe

if I pulled the string then released it and pulled it again would this be better than pre stretching?

And my response:

Originally Posted by drakulie

No. Just different. That said, if you do this on the crosses, you will achieve a tighter string bed.

[Irvin]

Let me make sure you understand what you said. Are you saying neither method is any better than the other but double pulling will produce a tighter string bed than pre-stretching?

[Irvin]

Originally Posted by 2ndServe

I have a lockout machine, an old alpha. But I find after one set my strings are catapulting my returns as I'm taking the ball on the rise in no man's land and coming in on the return.

Once this happens I feel like I have to check up on the returns to just get it in. So I'm looking for a super consistent string bed.

Sorry I missed you post somehow. Double pulling would offer a distinct advantage giving you a much more consistent tension that will hold for a longer period of time. Single pulling (with a lockout) would be similar to pre-stretching your string and there is a difference. Some machines like my Wise tensioner have a pre-stretch feature. All it does is pull at a higher tension and then drops back to your reference tension. When you single pull on a lockout you pull to a reference tension then it drops down to some value. Double pulling for you would produce a tighter string bed so you may want to consider than when you use that method. I would double pull the mains and crosses but primarily the mains. if you had a constant pull machine there would be less of a difference if there was any because the constant pulling is doing the subsequent pulls automatically.

EDIT: sorry we hi-jacked your thread

[bugeyed]

Originally Posted by Irvin

snip Single pulling (with a lockout) would be similar to pre-stretching your string and there is a difference. Some machine like my Wise tensioner have a pre-stretch feature. All it does is pull at a higher tension and then drops back to your reference tension. When you single pull on a lockout you pull to a reference tension then it drops down to some value. snip

EDIT: sorry we hi-jacked your thread

Please explain. How is single pulling on a lockout machine similar to pre-stretching? Oh, you just mean that it pulls to one tension & the resulting tension is a lower tension? For me, that happens when you string on any machine with any method! So, I must have missed your point.

kev

[Irvin]

Originally Posted by bugeyed

Please explain. How is single pulling on a lockout machine similar to pre-stretching? Oh, you just mean that it pulls to one tension & the resulting tension is a lower tension? For me, that happens when you string on any machine with any method! So, I must have missed your point.

kev

Sorry I thought I did explain but I will try again. When I select the pre stretch (10%) feature on my Wise with a reference tension of 50 the Wise will pull to 55 then drop down to 50. So the pre stretch pull at 10% over reference tension.

Many say when you use a lockout the resulting tension is about 10% lower but I have found it depends on the string being used. But any way when you set the lockout to 55 it pulls to 55 and locks out. Unlike a constant pull that continues to keep the tension up while you move the clamp the lock out tension string drop immediately and in the first 5 seconds is the biggest drop so when you set a lockout at 55 (assuming a 10% drop for the lockout) you end up with a string bed tension of 49.5 (10% of 55 = 5.5.) but you never really know because you don't know how much all strings will relax in that time it takes you to move the clamp. But on a lockout you are doing almost the same thing a constant pull is doing with a double pull as you are capturing that tension loss that occurred in the 5 seconds after lockout and you know what your tension is so it should be more consistent. The reason for the greater consistency is because the tension loss will be greater on a longer string than a shorter string and almost every string in the racket is different lengths.

Now which method is better to use if either? I would saying using a double pull on a lockout or a constant pull. If you are using a constant pull double pulling does not matter but that is not what the OP is using. On the lockout it makes a big difference.

It has been said here on the forum that the Star 5 because of the overshoot breaks strings. And Drakulie just said the Star 5 pulls 5-8 lbs over reference. Therefore I would think the less overshoot you have the less stress on you strings and the better it is for the strings.

EDIT: There is also a completely different type of pre stretch which is done without a machine when you wrap the string around a pole. That is not the pre stretch I am referring to.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by Irvin

Let me make sure you understand what you said.

I understand exactly what I said. Apparently, you don't.

Go back and read his first post and my response.

[Irvin]

Originally Posted by drakulie

I understand exactly what I said. Apparently, you don't.

Go back and read his first post and my response.

That's what I thought.

[A Defenseless Creature]

It's not the overshoot on the Star 5 that causes breakage its the tension head jaws. The overshoot will destroy playability, but the breakage is caused by another problem. It should be noted the tension jaw issue is NOT an issue on all Star 5s, just some of them.

[Irvin]

^^Good to know. I don't like the pre stretch on the Wise for the same reason especially for poly string.

[Pro_Tour_630]

after I strung on the star 5 at the 2012 GSS symposium, I told the babolat rep that the string bed was tighter than normal?!?!, he confirmed that yes the star 5 strings 5-7lbs tighter than other machines.

[Roger Wawrinka]

^so if I were normaly stringing at 54 I would string on a star 5 at 49 to 45 to get the same tension?

[Irvin]

Originally Posted by Roger Wawrinka

^so if I were normaly stringing at 54 I would string on a star 5 at 49 to 45 to get the same tension?

The Star 5's issue as I understand it is with overshoot. You can adjust the reference tension. If the reference tension is off that's the operator's fault. The reason a racket strung on a Star 5 feels tighter is because of the overshoot (aka pre-stretch.) so if you normally string a racket now at 54 and you change stringing machine no matter which one it is you should start at your normal tension. Depending on how you like it you make need to adjust the tension up or down.

[jjaded]

Originally Posted by Irvin

I remember YULitle made a video one time that he thought showed if you pull a hard weave two time you got a lot more stretch but that is not true. If you want to test it out mark the point on your tension your gripper is at when you pull the string, then release tension but hold the gripper closed on the string so it remains in the same place, and pull tension again you will see it goes right back to where it was.

EDIT: Here is the video I was talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwjDUQAGZMY&feature=plcp

I have seen this video, but isn't the sharpie mark on the wrong place, shouldn't it be at the grommet not where the string is clamped on the tensioner. Correct me if I am mistaken, but as shown it seems the machine would not pull the second pull as far, not necessarily pull anymore string from the racquet. If one marked at the grommet and that mark was further away from the racquet after the second pull I would agree that that amount of string would have been "loose" in the racquet otherwise.

[Irvin]

Originally Posted by jjaded

I have seen this video, but isn't the sharpie mark on the wrong place, shouldn't it be at the grommet not where the string is clamped on the tensioner. Correct me if I am mistaken, but as shown it seems the machine would not pull the second pull as far, not necessarily pull anymore string from the racquet. If one marked at the grommet and that mark was further away from the racquet after the second pull I would agree that that amount of string would have been "loose" in the racquet otherwise.

It does not matter where you put the sharpie mark. If the mark were placed at the grommet you would still see it farther from the racket just not as far. The reason the mark moved a greater distance is because that little portion of string from the racket to the tensioner is fresh string that has never been stretched. That small portion of string in the racket was the section of string between the racket and the tensioned on the last pull. If YULitle has marked the point on the tension head where the back of the gripper stopped after tension was pulled and he had not pulled the string out of the gripper and reset it the gripper would have ended up in the same place. All he showed was the first pull. Had he made a second pull with the string reset in the gripper it would have been pelled about an inch less or the distance he moved the string up in the gripper. It is just a parlor trick but i dont think he knew he was actually tricking you. I think he fell for it also.

Think about it for just a minute. You are pulling with a constant pull machine, and it goes back to some point. If you release tension and keep the string at the same place in the gripper and pull the same tension it will pull again to the same point.

[fortun8son]

I have to agree with drakulie.
'Better'?...no.
Different?...yes.
Both will give a tighter stringbed, but for different reasons and with a different effect on the overall life of the string.
There are many techniques that will produce a tighter stringbed, such as straightening the string while you pull the cross.
'Better'?... a matter of opinion.
Consistency is still the key.

[Irvin]

Originally Posted by fortun8son

I have to agree with drakulie.
'Better'?...no.
Different?...yes.
Both will give a tighter stringbed, but for different reasons and with a different effect on the overall life of the string.
There are many techniques that will produce a tighter stringbed, such as straightening the string while you pull the cross.
'Better'?... a matter of opinion.
Consistency is still the key.

I would have to disagree with both of you. If you are pulling with a constant pull would it be better to pull twice? No just different and yes it would produce a tighter stringbed because you are pulling for a longer length of time. But you could do the same thing by pulling longer with one pull.

Does the OP have a constant pull machine? No if he uses a NEOS it is a lockout machine. Pulling twice on a lockout does have some distinct advantages. And right up at the top of the list is tension loss. By pulling twice with a lockout machine you reduce tension loss. Would you consider a strung racket that holds it tension for a longer period of time a better string job? I would. Now there is also the theory that you have to break a new string job in first before it feels right so you let the racket sit for a while or play with it until it loosens up. But that 's a different argument.

So let's ask the question this way. If the price of a constant pull electronic we're the same as a lockout which one would you buy? Now keep in mind a constant pull machine does just what the OP is asking. It pulls more than once. It just pulls and pulls until you stop it. A lockout doesn't it pull once and locks out. Now if you chose the electronic you are also saying multiple pulls is better than one. An electronic tensioner is no more accurate than a lockout.

I agree tensioning and pre-stretching are two different things sometimes but some tensioning head do have a pre-stretch function that is different from what I call manually pre-stretching string.

EDIT: I looked back over this thread and the OP said he did have a lockout (an old Alpha) and he like a boardy stringbed. So for his specific application two pulls would be better.

[sundaypunch]

I would agree with Drakulie. It will be different but that does not make it better. There will be greater initial tension loss if you pull once rather than twice. That is only a problem if you don't like the lower tension.

Let's say the OP experiments with the same string at different tensions for several months. If he always pulls once, he will arrive at a tension that works perfectly for him. If he always pulled twice, he would still arrive at the same actual tension that works perfectly for him. The difference is that he will be using a higher setting on the single pull machine to compensate for the greater initial tension loss.

In the end, it is exactly as Drakulie said - double pulling is not better just different.

[Irvin]

Originally Posted by sundaypunch

I would agree with Drakulie. It will be different but that does not make it better. There will be greater initial tension loss if you pull once rather than twice. That is only a problem if you don't like the lower tension.

Let's say the OP experiments with the same string at different tensions for several months. If he always pulls once, he will arrive at a tension that works perfectly for him. If he always pulled twice, he would still arrive at the same actual tension that works perfectly for him. The difference is that he will be using a higher setting on the single pull machine to compensate for the greater initial tension loss.

In the end, it is exactly as Drakulie said - double pulling is not better just different.

I agree with you except for one thing. Because you must use higher tension to arrive at the same final result over time you could very well be causing more fatigue in the string with that initial higher pull. Then you end up with a racket you may or may not want to play with immediately. I think it is better for the string to put less stress on the string by using lower tensions to get to the same final tension and have a racket that feels good and results in less tension loss.

EDIT: Also the OP said he did not like the lower tension and he likes the boardy feel and played with Kevlar mains I believe.

Originally Posted by 2ndServe

ok thx, I actually like as boardy a feel as I can get. I string kevlar mains at 70lbs and skip the outer mains like you did at one time. I'm wondering how high I can go before I stress the frame too much.

From this post I am assuming he wants the lowest pulling tension that produces the highest final stringbed tension. Using a lockout machine that would be pulling more than once. Pre-stretching will not produce as high a tension as double pulling.

[Tennishacker]

It's all relative, if you want a tension of 60lbs, than on a lockout string at a higher tension, on constant pull, you shouldn't have to make any adjustments.

I have a lockout, I don't double pull because there is a chance of deforming the string by the gripper.