In what manner are female strokes usually different than male ones?

[UCSF2012]

Originally Posted by dangalak

I was talking about professional male players, not rec players.



Didn't know that you were the average male pro.

Can somebody explain to me how a guy like Del Potro doesn't miss every second ball long? He doesn't have an extreme grip, he finishes above his shoulder and has straight arm on contact. Isn't the purpose of spin to make sure that your shots don't go long? It's not like a guy of his power needs to be flat to be effective.

Del Potro hits flat. Smooth, consistent swings, without high RHS. He knows how hard he can hit and still keep the ball in the court.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by dangalak

I mean, i know the end result. (more spin in the ATP) However, what leads to it? Is it just superior power or is it also because of different technique (males pronating on the forehand more during the takeback, while girls mostly just supinate; men finishing more across the body as opposed to over the shoulder; men using more straight arm FHs?)

The men employ a lot more supination/pronation in their stroke production on both sides which adds racquet speed at contact. The women tend to lay the racquet back before the end of their backswings and pull the racquet through contact without much supination/pronation. I'm not sure why. It's not as if modern frames were too heavy for them. They just don't do it.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by aimr75

Henins forehand was more ATP than WTA too

True that! Great stroke production on both sides.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by UCSF2012

Del Potro hits flat. Smooth, consistent swings, without high RHS. He knows how hard he can hit and still keep the ball in the court.

Common misconception. Del Potro hits a TON of topspin on his forehand.

[dangalak]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Common misconception. Del Potro hits a TON of topspin on his forehand.

How though? His FH looks pretty classic to me.

[UCSF2012]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Common misconception. Del Potro hits a TON of topspin on his forehand.

I'm watching his videos. His forehands barely jump off the ground, and his opponents are standing up because of it. Doesn't look like a ton of topspin to me.

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by dangalak

How though? His FH looks pretty classic to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY6o5m3jRfs

I dunno man, he actually has a pretty large loop in his forehand which alone generates more topspin then I can dream of. Plus he's like 6'6, so I'm not sure he needs that much simply from his normal wheelhouse to get it in.

-Fuji

[UCSF2012]

Originally Posted by Fuji

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY6o5m3jRfs

I dunno man, he actually has a pretty large loop in his forehand which alone generates more topspin then I can dream of. Plus he's like 6'6, so I'm not sure he needs that much simply from his normal wheelhouse to get it in.

-Fuji

During contact and immediately after contact, the racket goes way forward, not up. That's a flat forehand.

[kiteboard]

They don't have type III atp snap back fh. They don't hit overheads no matter what. They don't have big serves or hit aces. They don't come into the net at all. No one has a one hander. Cowardly rigidity is the norm.

[dangalak]

Originally Posted by kiteboard

They don't have type III atp snap back fh. They don't hit overheads no matter what. They don't have big serves or hit aces. They don't come into the net at all. No one has a one hander. Cowardly rigidity is the norm.

Serena, Venus, Stosur and Jankovic hit some nice ones.

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by kiteboard

They don't have type III atp snap back fh.

They don't have what now!?!?!?!

[Dave M]

^^ I'm gald you asked Ash, hate to be only one reading this and wondering what that is, I must need one.

[Ash_Smith]

^^^Yes i'm looking forward to finding out what one of those is!!!

Back on topic - as i've illustrated the biggest difference in forehand is prep phase through to loading phase - many female players allow the racquet to cross behind the body as shown in the Sharapova example, whilst the male players tend to keep the racquet, arm and had on the ball side of the body.

On serve, you tend to see a lot more sagittal torso movement from the women, whilst the men tend to maintain the line of the spine through the hips better - likely because the women tend to open their hips more into and through impact.

Cheers

[TCF]

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[Tcbtennis]

Originally Posted by TCF

Many kids coaches teach girls and boys differently from the start.

With girls we find that as they age the topspin they generate is not enough to keep the ball from sitting up to be crushed. So they are taught a flatter, more penetrating stroke.

And as we all know, in general, girls will have bigger back swings on the forehands. Boys are taught to keep it compact, pat the dog, topspin. The top ATP men get into the slot with the racquet parallel or close to parallel to the ground at some point....Serena's racquet face on her forehand never gets parallel to the ground.

But we do what we can to minimize the differences. We have girls do a ton of throwing as many just do not have the throwing experiences of the boys. We also try to compromise on the take backs so they are not crazy like some women have.

As others said, there are exceptions and you do find women with 'men like' strokes.

I have a boy and a girl who both started playing at the same time with the same coach. Though they started at the same time and were taught the same technique, their paths diverged. My son hits with heavy topspin with a compact backswing and my daughter hits flatter with a much larger backswing. In fact we are working to shorten her backswing because it way too big.

I think that you are right in that my daughter's forehand was attackable until she developed a flatter and deeper ball.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by dangalak

How though? His FH looks pretty classic to me.

I don't know why you would think that. I'm guessing you haven't seen what genuine old school, wood racquet, strokes look like. Del Potro's forehand is far from old school. He hits way out front with a huge upward trajectory and big upper body rotation. None of that is old school.

In any event, you can confirm how much spin he hits just by looking at how hard he hits and the flight of his ball. He couldn't keep the ball in the court without a huge spin rate.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by UCSF2012

I'm watching his videos. His forehands barely jump off the ground, and his opponents are standing up because of it. Doesn't look like a ton of topspin to me.

I've seen him live. His ball has a ton of spin on it and it dips very hard at the end. He doesn't hit with as much arc, and therefore, doesn't get as much visible kick, as some because he hits so hard. But, his spin rate is still very heavy. But, it's not easy to judge that from video or TV. Live is the only way to really see what's going on.

I've read a lot of comments on this board describing Soderling's and Del Potro's fh's as flat. No one on the tour hits anywhere near flat. They all hit a TON of topspin. Soderling and Del Potro even more than most. They have to in order to hit that hard and keep the ball in play.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by MikeyBigShot

What would stop a guy from developing ground strokes like Sharapova or Serena? I know that most guys here probably try to coordinate their undies with whatever ATP players have under their shorts, but seriously what aspect og Serena/Sharapova's strokes aren't applicable to amateur men?

I doubt most amateur men need a WW FH to control their self-perceived massive FH.

Respectfully I don't agree - at all.

I'm just a rec tennis player, but I can't keep the ball in and hit as big as I do now (with modern strokes) without using a WW fh. I used to hit fairly flat, like the women, but the ball had to be around waist high on my side and within a couple of inches of the net tape to stay in. When I got it in it was great, but I missed a lot when I really went for it. It's a pretty fine margin.

And I think almost any guy can hit a fh harder than a pro woman if they just lay into it full blast with some modicum of technique. Size and testosterone are the reason. Like LeeD said, boys and girls are different. That doesn't make you better than pro woman because you need to keep it in, hit it to locations, hit on the run, etc.

Now with modern strokes I can swing close to full speed at most balls and vary the amount of ts I put on the ball to keep it in. Modern strokes really make a difference, and they're really better.

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by dangalak

I mean, i know the end result. (more spin in the ATP) However, what leads to it? Is it just superior power or is it also because of different technique (males pronating on the forehand more during the takeback, while girls mostly just supinate; men finishing more across the body as opposed to over the shoulder; men using more straight arm FHs?)

the main reason is that women hit flatter because they don't have as much RHS. thus they need to hit more through the ball because if they hit with the same spin as men their balls would be "sitting up".

there were some women who hit spinny (sanchez, sabatini, schiavone) but most of them don't hit hard. there were very few women who were strong enough to hit hard and spinny (henin, stosur, mauresmo).

men on the other hand are so strong that they have to hit spinny to keep the ball in.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by rkelley

Respectfully I don't agree - at all.

I'm just a rec tennis player, but I can't keep the ball in and hit as big as I do now (with modern strokes) without using a WW fh. I used to hit fairly flat, like the women, but the ball had to be around waist high on my side and within a couple of inches of the net tape to stay in. When I got it in it was great, but I missed a lot when I really went for it. It's a pretty fine margin.

And I think almost any guy can hit a fh harder than a pro woman if they just lay into it full blast with some modicum of technique. Size and testosterone are the reason. Like LeeD said, boys and girls are different. That doesn't make you better than pro woman because you need to keep it in, hit it to locations, hit on the run, etc.

Now with modern strokes I can swing close to full speed at most balls and vary the amount of ts I put on the ball to keep it in. Modern strokes really make a difference, and they're really better.

I have to disagree on a few points. WTA players do hit modern forehands with WW finishes. They just don't employ nearly as much supination/protation as the ATP men do. And, I can assure you, very few rec level men can hit as hard as WTA players can. Don't kid yourself. They may not have the racquet speed the pro men have, but, they can still tear the cover off of the ball compared to rec players.