Ad player vs Duce player - Page 3

tennis tom · 10-01-2012, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

I should've also stated that my 1HBH is more likely to be late, thus an inside out backhand isn't impossible.

F.T.D., sounds like it's time to work on improving your BH; maybe you can get together with NTRPolice for some drilling.

tnnisfan · 10-01-2012, 12:50 PM

Well, great discussion and many fantastic comments. We played our first match today with me on the Duce and my partner on the Ad. We did win.. However, many of our games were "me" starting the point with a deep crosscourt forehand at caused a loopier return for my partner to put away. This worked great till they tried poaching my return then I had to go down the line a few times, which kept the net gal in her spot, but I did get a few winners. Any serve out wide to my partner created a put away poach (I got hit twice today). But, on second serves or down the middle serves my partner was able to return deep crosscourt and we were able to pull it out 7-5 and 6-4. I like my partner she is a nice calm lady, but I would like for her to work on her returns. I'm worried better serves will be able to pull her wide more consistently. The one pro (a lady) who created this combo was "gloating" to the other pro (a guy), but he still insists that our scores were too close and that we should switch next time. Thoughts on our scores being too close??

floridatennisdude · 10-01-2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis tom

F.T.D., sounds like it's time to work on improving your BH; maybe you can get together with NTRPolice for some drilling.

I've been working at it for 20+ years. It's about as good as its ever been. Still my weaker side, probably never going to change that. Tried 2HBH for a spell, but it worked less than my switch hitting in little league. I have a racquetball background so 1H is more natural, but not Gasquet-ish by any stretch. However, I've seen Mr Police's 1H'er and I don't think he's got anything on mine.

tennis tom · 10-01-2012, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

I've been working at it for 20+ years. It's about as good as its ever been. Still my weaker side, probably never going to change that.

I'm still working on mine and it's been about 50 years but it's coming around finally. Here are a few tips that helped me:

* Place your thumb firmly behind your grip on the big flat. This will support the shot firmly as the palm of the hand does for the FH.

* You will notice yourself cheating on this when the thumb starts slipping to its side rather than firmly flat against the racket--but you will know what the problem is then. You must have the courage and thoughtfulness to execute this--easier said then done! If you don't firmly place the thumb, it will slice and take the power out of the stroke.

* Holding the grip as far down into the palm will facilitate the grip change.

* Putting the palm of the off hand under the butt of the racket will help to de-weight the racket also.

* Now hit a million practice balls.

G'luck

HookEmJeff · 10-01-2012, 02:24 PM

I guess I always take the side that my partner doesn't want, which typically seems to be the deuce side. I'll play whichever, I have no preference.

Usually, I pretty much assume I'm playing the ad in mixed if the guy has a ridiculous kicker to the BH, because most girls I've played with can't handle that big hop or out wide lunge return.

I think whenever they protest, I let them see and then it's funny to see if they want to try to switch it up in a second set or not. Sometimes you just have to let people take their medicine. I also prefer to not have every ball come to me at 15-0 or 30-15 or 40-30 as a returner in mixed at least (LOL).

I think everyone likes to think they are the stronger player because they are playing the AD side. There IS no stronger side, there are just stronger players.

I just think you play simple math: Statistically, you are just MORE likely to be playing MORE balls by playing on the deuce side because everything starts out on that side. If every game had the same number of even points, then I'd say it's a wash. But, it's not. And...I come to play, so I certainly want to play more shots!

The funny thing I've noticed is that at lower rec level doubles (8.0 COMBO and below) many people still can get a LOT of forehand returns off the deuce side, either off a runaround, a slow serve, or just because for most players serving at that level it's easier to serve center or wide on deuce side. So, you can get that FH. Much harder for players that level to get the ball up the T.

At levels above that (maybe 8.5 combo and above), you start seeing that BH down the middle a LOT LOT more. I think it's just much more part of the game and that deuce returner is really under the gun because that's usually his/her BH that has to go all the way over. It's a small window to hit into with what is usually most people's weaker wing.

Most players (at least all the ones I've seen in my years of playing) are way more versatile with their FH, they can bang it, lob it, slice it, roll it, inside out it. Because of that, I think many players feel the FH is their better shot that they actually have more court space to "safely" hit into on the ad side. I know a lot of players - even at good levels - do NOT feel that way about that BH return inside out. They know they can't get that ball over there and have to lob.

At the pro level, I think they pretty much squeeze the middle with most stuff and leave the alleys completely alone - even in rallies - daring you to try to redirect off of 120 mph serves or huge groundies and volleys. If you can do that, you are Rafael Nadal or Roger Federer or Leander Paes. You are NOT the guy at the park.

Granted, many break and key points are on the AD side, and it's always the final point of a deuce game. I just think that the AD side better player discussion is overplayed.

I think the real issue (on who should play which side) is can you return serve consistently well enough to get it away from the poacher, whatever side you're on?

Knowing tendencies, knowing all of that, that's how you should make your decision in my opinion.

I like both sides and have never tried to be "phobic" about either one. People that are like that are not people I want to play with!

Jeff

floridatennisdude · 10-01-2012, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis tom

I'm still working on mine and it's been about 50 years but it's coming around finally. Here are a few tips that helped me:

* Place your thumb firmly behind your grip on the big flat. This will support the shot firmly as the palm of the hand does for the FH.

* You will notice yourself cheating on this when the thumb starts slipping to its side rather than firmly flat against the racket--but you will know what the problem is then. You must have the courage and thoughtfulness to execute this--easier said then done! If you don't firmly place the thumb, it will slice and take the power out of the stroke.

* Holding the grip as far down into the palm will facilitate the grip change.

* Putting the palm of the off hand under the butt of the racket will help to de-weight the racket also.

* Now hit a million practice balls.

G'luck

I have no grip issues. I have however mastered the art if sloppy footwork and late shoulder turn.

kylebarendrick · 10-01-2012, 04:16 PM

Jeff's logic is very similar to mine. The deuce returner does see more points. There are pluses and minuses either way (return consistency, whether the server can exploit whatever weaknesses you have, what side do you volley better on, who has the better overhead, etc.). In the end, you have to simply figure out which way you and your partner play better.

For those who stick with "the key points are on the ad side"... Would you rather have your better returner receiving serve at 40-30 or have your weaker returner receiving serve at 30-40?

tennis tom · 10-01-2012, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

I have no grip issues. I have however mastered the art if sloppy footwork and late shoulder turn.

Turn sideways and don't open up after the hit. Big shoulder turn, shoulder touches chin. Racket head is up high, above your head, like Gasquet.

TonyB · 10-01-2012, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HookEmJeff

I guess I always take the side that my partner doesn't want, which typically seems to be the deuce side. I'll play whichever, I have no preference.

Usually, I pretty much assume I'm playing the ad in mixed if the guy has a ridiculous kicker to the BH, because most girls I've played with can't handle that big hop or out wide lunge return.

I think whenever they protest, I let them see and then it's funny to see if they want to try to switch it up in a second set or not. Sometimes you just have to let people take their medicine. I also prefer to not have every ball come to me at 15-0 or 30-15 or 40-30 as a returner in mixed at least (LOL).

I think everyone likes to think they are the stronger player because they are playing the AD side. There IS no stronger side, there are just stronger players.

I just think you play simple math: Statistically, you are just MORE likely to be playing MORE balls by playing on the deuce side because everything starts out on that side. If every game had the same number of even points, then I'd say it's a wash. But, it's not. And...I come to play, so I certainly want to play more shots!

The funny thing I've noticed is that at lower rec level doubles (8.0 COMBO and below) many people still can get a LOT of forehand returns off the deuce side, either off a runaround, a slow serve, or just because for most players serving at that level it's easier to serve center or wide on deuce side. So, you can get that FH. Much harder for players that level to get the ball up the T.

At levels above that (maybe 8.5 combo and above), you start seeing that BH down the middle a LOT LOT more. I think it's just much more part of the game and that deuce returner is really under the gun because that's usually his/her BH that has to go all the way over. It's a small window to hit into with what is usually most people's weaker wing.

Most players (at least all the ones I've seen in my years of playing) are way more versatile with their FH, they can bang it, lob it, slice it, roll it, inside out it. Because of that, I think many players feel the FH is their better shot that they actually have more court space to "safely" hit into on the ad side. I know a lot of players - even at good levels - do NOT feel that way about that BH return inside out. They know they can't get that ball over there and have to lob.

At the pro level, I think they pretty much squeeze the middle with most stuff and leave the alleys completely alone - even in rallies - daring you to try to redirect off of 120 mph serves or huge groundies and volleys. If you can do that, you are Rafael Nadal or Roger Federer or Leander Paes. You are NOT the guy at the park.

Granted, many break and key points are on the AD side, and it's always the final point of a deuce game. I just think that the AD side better player discussion is overplayed.

I think the real issue (on who should play which side) is can you return serve consistently well enough to get it away from the poacher, whatever side you're on?

Knowing tendencies, knowing all of that, that's how you should make your decision in my opinion.

I like both sides and have never tried to be "phobic" about either one. People that are like that are not people I want to play with!

Jeff

First off, listen to this guy. He knows what he's talking about and obviously has played a lot of doubles. So have I. I agree with virtually everything he says.

I would also add that there is a slight issue with the ad court that you don't necessarily have to deal with in the deuce court. That is, if your deuce court partner is weak, you are very often returning serve DOWN a point. That is, the serving team has the advantage and can be more aggressive, because they can more easily afford to lose a point. This typically means that the server will be more aggressive with his serve, and the netman will be more likely to poach. So, a weaker deuce court player puts much more pressure on his ad court partner. This is not good.

A VERY basic rule of thumb is: the stronger BH returner should play the deuce court. This is done for obvious reasons, as most of the serves in the 4.0-4.5 level matches are directed to the backhand. If you're always starting out the game DOWN a point, it's tough to recover in the long run over a full match.

My personal rule of thumb in round-robin leagues is: count how many break points or breaks of serve you get in the first set, THEN you decide whether or not to switch return sides based on that number. That is, if you get ZERO break points, then you switch return sides. If you get only a few BPs but no actual breaks, then you still switch. If you get more than 1 break of serve, then you stay. Anything in between, you decide based on how well you're both returning.

I would also add that the more CONSISTENT returner should probably play the ad court, as it's more likely that they'll keep you in a game in the event that you get down in the score. The deuce court returner has the advantage of being able to "go for it" on the return of serve, provided his partner is reliable.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I play the deuce court whenever I can, and I have tons of options for returning serve. Slice crosscourt, dipping topspin BH, crushing the ball DTL with my forehand, lob over the netman to the server's BH, etc. It's a fun side to play. I feel more restricted with the ad court, although a powerful inside-out forehand is a potent weapon, but I feel there are fewer options because it's less likely to be able to crush a ball DTL from the ad court, so the opposing netman can more easily poach.

TonyB · 10-01-2012, 05:45 PM

Oh, I forgot to add: there is also the factor of what side you're better at POACHING. On the deuce court (assuming right-handers), you have to be able to have a strong BH poach. While most people feel comfortable poaching with their forehands, there are also a ton of people (particularly 2-handers) who cannot comfortably poach on the backhand side. These people should NOT play the deuce court unless they have a ridiculously good return of serve to make up for it.

As long as you can get the serve back in play, then your netman should spring into action on the second shot, particularly if your return of serve is halfway decent. In playing the deuce court, I would guess that almost 50% of the points I try to get into the action on the second ball. That's because my BH overhead and volley are very good. I have a good "feel" for moving to my left and picking off balls with my backhand volley. But when I play with 2-handers that want to play the deuce court, they NEVER poach and it puts more pressure on me in the ad court because no matter how good my return is, I usually still have to play another ball.

Just something else to keep in mind. Sometimes it's not just the service return that matters, it's the ability of your partner to cut off a weak ball on his side. For right-handers, it's easy to poach from the ad court, but it takes a player with a good one-handed volley to be able to support his partner from the deuce court.

floridatennisdude · 10-01-2012, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis tom

Turn sideways and don't open up after the hit. Big shoulder turn, shoulder touches chin. Racket head is up high, above your head, like Gasquet.

You mean that after all these years of trying to ingrain this in my brain, I can now do it. Sweet!

McLovin · 10-02-2012, 03:28 AM

Late to this discussion, but it is intriguing as I spoke with my 'possible' doubles partner for our tri-level team last night about this. We're both 4.5s, but he smacks the ball much harder than I do (imagine the pairing of del Potro & Ferrer).

We can both return well from both sides, but my ad return is pretty much automatic, no matter the serve. I feel that this gives him the ability to 'swing away' at his return, knowing 90% of the time, I will give us a good opportunity to win the point on my side.

Of course, it helps that (1) he's solid at the net, and (2) is 6' 4" and has the wingspan of a pterodactyl, but still, it is my feeling that having the solid returner on the ad side *can* free up the other person mentally, allowing them to take a crack at the ball with minimal negative effect. You just need to let them know you are OK w/ them taking a crack at it.

"No worries, I'll give you another shot"...

Cindysphinx · 10-02-2012, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyB

As long as you can get the serve back in play, then your netman should spring into action on the second shot, particularly if your return of serve is halfway decent. In playing the deuce court, I would guess that almost 50% of the points I try to get into the action on the second ball. That's because my BH overhead and volley are very good. I have a good "feel" for moving to my left and picking off balls with my backhand volley. But when I play with 2-handers that want to play the deuce court, they NEVER poach and it puts more pressure on me in the ad court because no matter how good my return is, I usually still have to play another ball.

This.

It is very demoralizing to play the ad court with someone who has no BH volley/BH overhead in the deuce court. They will spend the whole match terrified to poach with their BH. Sometimes they will even start the match by declaring that they won't poach to their BH.

Return of serve is an important shot, but it's a long day at the office when you get no help at net. I like to play my BH volley, so deuce court is a good fit for me.

tennis tom · 10-02-2012, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

You mean that after all these years of trying to ingrain this in my brain, I can now do it. Sweet!

Well, you should be able to. Where is your BH breaking down? If you've followed my instructions on the grip and footwork it should be working for you--have you hit a million balls as you've been told to do? Maybe it's your swing technique? Are you using a proper loop or are you listening to an ignorant pro and getting your "racket back"? Are you familiar with the concept of LTR, (length, tension, ratio?). Post up a video and maybe we can discover the missing link to your hitting a proper BH.

LuckyR · 10-02-2012, 09:23 AM

Assuming that both partners are right handed, then the decision should be based on whether the team wants to maximize the strength of one player (perhaps the "better" player, whatever that is...) or minimize the weakness of the other player (perhaps the "lesser" player, see above).

Obviously if you can accomplish both at the same time, no discussion necessary, just do it (tm).

The discussion happens when you have to choose between them and it is not predictable which will lead to a better outcome.

floridatennisdude · 10-02-2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis tom

Well, you should be able to. Where is your BH breaking down? If you've followed my instructions on the grip and footwork it should be working for you--have you hit a million balls as you've been told to do? Maybe it's your swing technique? Are you using a proper loop or are you listening to an ignorant pro and getting your "racket back"? Are you familiar with the concept of LTR, (length, tension, ratio?). Post up a video and maybe we can discover the missing link to your hitting a proper BH.

Sorry, thought you understood what I was getting at. I fully understand how to hit a good backhand. Zero of what you've stated I didn't know.

The issue I have is doing it perfect, at match speed, ad nauseum. I could spend the next ten years doing BH work and would get a negligible result.

Even Fed's BH breaks down on him and I am nowhere near as skilled or fit as him. In fact, laziness is probably my simple issue.

TonyB · 10-02-2012, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

The issue I have is doing it perfect, at match speed, ad nauseum. I could spend the next ten years doing BH work and would get a negligible result.

Even Fed's BH breaks down on him and I am nowhere near as skilled or fit as him. In fact, laziness is probably my simple issue.

Fed's BH return is actually very good for a one-hander. His slice BH return is extremely consistent and he gets the ball deep near the baseline almost every time.

However, since we're basically talking about doubles here, try this as a hint: Wait for the service return holding your BH grip, choked up slightly (maybe 1 inch), with your body rotated slightly towards the backhand side as if you are expecting a backhand return. If the ball comes to your FH, you have to change grips, but that's the price you pay for anticipating the BH return.

If you're not waiting for the BH return, you're really at a disadvantage, especially if you have a one-hander. Give it a try.

tennis tom · 10-02-2012, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

Sorry, thought you understood what I was getting at. I fully understand how to hit a good backhand. Zero of what you've stated I didn't know.

My apologies, I will brush-up on my mind-reading. Please disregard the $5,000.00 invoice I mailed you for online instruction. Maybe try hypnosis.

floridatennisdude · 10-02-2012, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyB

Fed's BH return is actually very good for a one-hander. His slice BH return is extremely consistent and he gets the ball deep near the baseline almost every time.

However, since we're basically talking about doubles here, try this as a hint: Wait for the service return holding your BH grip, choked up slightly (maybe 1 inch), with your body rotated slightly towards the backhand side as if you are expecting a backhand return. If the ball comes to your FH, you have to change grips, but that's the price you pay for anticipating the BH return.

If you're not waiting for the BH return, you're really at a disadvantage, especially if you have a one-hander. Give it a try.

Hmmm, I do everything except choke up an inch. What's the theory on that? Gain a little control in exchange for a loss of reach?

tennis tom · 10-02-2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

Hmmm, I do everything except choke up an inch. What's the theory on that? Gain a little control in exchange for a loss of reach?

I'm glad to see there's something you DON'T know about the BH, I'll stop bowing now.

10-01-2012, 02:24 PM	#45
HookEmJeff Rookie Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 389	I guess I always take the side that my partner doesn't want, which typically seems to be the deuce side. I'll play whichever, I have no preference. Usually, I pretty much assume I'm playing the ad in mixed if the guy has a ridiculous kicker to the BH, because most girls I've played with can't handle that big hop or out wide lunge return. I think whenever they protest, I let them see and then it's funny to see if they want to try to switch it up in a second set or not. Sometimes you just have to let people take their medicine. I also prefer to not have every ball come to me at 15-0 or 30-15 or 40-30 as a returner in mixed at least (LOL). I think everyone likes to think they are the stronger player because they are playing the AD side. There IS no stronger side, there are just stronger players. I just think you play simple math: Statistically, you are just MORE likely to be playing MORE balls by playing on the deuce side because everything starts out on that side. If every game had the same number of even points, then I'd say it's a wash. But, it's not. And...I come to play, so I certainly want to play more shots! The funny thing I've noticed is that at lower rec level doubles (8.0 COMBO and below) many people still can get a LOT of forehand returns off the deuce side, either off a runaround, a slow serve, or just because for most players serving at that level it's easier to serve center or wide on deuce side. So, you can get that FH. Much harder for players that level to get the ball up the T. At levels above that (maybe 8.5 combo and above), you start seeing that BH down the middle a LOT LOT more. I think it's just much more part of the game and that deuce returner is really under the gun because that's usually his/her BH that has to go all the way over. It's a small window to hit into with what is usually most people's weaker wing. Most players (at least all the ones I've seen in my years of playing) are way more versatile with their FH, they can bang it, lob it, slice it, roll it, inside out it. Because of that, I think many players feel the FH is their better shot that they actually have more court space to "safely" hit into on the ad side. I know a lot of players - even at good levels - do NOT feel that way about that BH return inside out. They know they can't get that ball over there and have to lob. At the pro level, I think they pretty much squeeze the middle with most stuff and leave the alleys completely alone - even in rallies - daring you to try to redirect off of 120 mph serves or huge groundies and volleys. If you can do that, you are Rafael Nadal or Roger Federer or Leander Paes. You are NOT the guy at the park. Granted, many break and key points are on the AD side, and it's always the final point of a deuce game. I just think that the AD side better player discussion is overplayed. I think the real issue (on who should play which side) is can you return serve consistently well enough to get it away from the poacher, whatever side you're on? Knowing tendencies, knowing all of that, that's how you should make your decision in my opinion. I like both sides and have never tried to be "phobic" about either one. People that are like that are not people I want to play with! Jeff __________________ Mental game? That's for people without sick timing on their forehands.

10-01-2012, 05:45 PM	#50
TonyB Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,731	Oh, I forgot to add: there is also the factor of what side you're better at POACHING. On the deuce court (assuming right-handers), you have to be able to have a strong BH poach. While most people feel comfortable poaching with their forehands, there are also a ton of people (particularly 2-handers) who cannot comfortably poach on the backhand side. These people should NOT play the deuce court unless they have a ridiculously good return of serve to make up for it. As long as you can get the serve back in play, then your netman should spring into action on the second shot, particularly if your return of serve is halfway decent. In playing the deuce court, I would guess that almost 50% of the points I try to get into the action on the second ball. That's because my BH overhead and volley are very good. I have a good "feel" for moving to my left and picking off balls with my backhand volley. But when I play with 2-handers that want to play the deuce court, they NEVER poach and it puts more pressure on me in the ad court because no matter how good my return is, I usually still have to play another ball. Just something else to keep in mind. Sometimes it's not just the service return that matters, it's the ability of your partner to cut off a weak ball on his side. For right-handers, it's easy to poach from the ad court, but it takes a player with a good one-handed volley to be able to support his partner from the deuce court. __________________ Lois: "Peter, I'm not wearing any panties." Peter: "That's ok, honey. We can throw that chair out."

10-02-2012, 03:28 AM	#52
McLovin Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,616	Late to this discussion, but it is intriguing as I spoke with my 'possible' doubles partner for our tri-level team last night about this. We're both 4.5s, but he smacks the ball much harder than I do (imagine the pairing of del Potro & Ferrer). We can both return well from both sides, but my ad return is pretty much automatic, no matter the serve. I feel that this gives him the ability to 'swing away' at his return, knowing 90% of the time, I will give us a good opportunity to win the point on my side. Of course, it helps that (1) he's solid at the net, and (2) is 6' 4" and has the wingspan of a pterodactyl, but still, it is my feeling that having the solid returner on the ad side can free up the other person mentally, allowing them to take a crack at the ball with minimal negative effect. You just need to let them know you are OK w/ them taking a crack at it. "No worries, I'll give you another shot"... __________________ "Nobody beats Vitas Gerulaitis 17 times in a row" -- Vitas Gerulaitis, after beating Jimmy Connors on his 17th try. Last edited by McLovin : 10-02-2012 at 04:26 AM.

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