Was Mandlikova basically a lesser Navratilova, but with Evert's basline craft?

[BruceG]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Not really. She is compared mostly to Goolagong but I dont even find them that similar. The closest comparision I could find is she is a Martina Hingis with more firepower but without the mental toughness or consistency.

The only women who ever moved as beautifully and effortlessly as Mandlikova were Goolagong and Bueno. Martina Hingis was a compact and smooth hitter but she was like a robot compared to Hana and as an athlete she simply wasn't in the same stratosphere as Mandlikova. I mean, that's like comparing a race horse to a cart horse.

When Hana was on she could hit winners off everything and beat anyone in the world from any part of the court. When she was off she could lose to anyone. Her game was very delicate and didn't have the same margin for error as Martina or Chris. She was a better shot-maker than either of them but didn't have their determination or drive.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by BruceG

The only women who ever moved as beautifully and effortlessly as Mandlikova were Goolagong and Bueno. Martina Hingis was a compact and smooth hitter but she was like a robot compared to Hana and as an athlete she simply wasn't in the same stratosphere as Mandlikova. I mean, that's like comparing a race horse to a cart horse.

When Hana was on she could hit winners off everything and beat anyone in the world from any part of the court. When she was off she could lose to anyone. Her game was very delicate and didn't have the same margin for error as Martina or Chris. She was a better shot-maker than either of them but didn't have their determination or drive.

movement like Goolagong i would agree
Bueno, i´m happy to say i´m too young to have seen her play, other than on video
the comparison to Hingis i don´t see

[kiki]

Originally Posted by jrepac

At her best, she could beat anyone, on any surface. She was the female version of Johnny Mac....immensely talented and a lot of fun to watch.

But, if she was off just a bit, she could not hold up against Chris or Martina

Maybe Mac would be the player she could be somehow compared to.

It is curious how the big four of the Golden Era came almost in paralel trends: Borg and Navratilova leaving their countries as both adopted another citizenship, Connors and Evert, probably America´s Most Popular couple for years, Austin and JMac, the young prodigies and, finally, Lendl and Hana, the european prodigies with a very polemic personality.Those characters helped put tennis to its historical peak.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by SoBad

I remember Goolagong from when we used to spend summers on a farm as kids. She was so beautiful that she gleamed.

She was the true princess of courts.Charm and Evonne go in the same sentence.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BruceG

The only women who ever moved as beautifully and effortlessly as Mandlikova were Goolagong and Bueno. Martina Hingis was a compact and smooth hitter but she was like a robot compared to Hana and as an athlete she simply wasn't in the same stratosphere as Mandlikova. I mean, that's like comparing a race horse to a cart horse.

When Hana was on she could hit winners off everything and beat anyone in the world from any part of the court. When she was off she could lose to anyone. Her game was very delicate and didn't have the same margin for error as Martina or Chris. She was a better shot-maker than either of them but didn't have their determination or drive.

I agree but I think Hingis was just as graceful as a shotmaker and her charm was the way she used her mind, which is the contrary to Hana.Mandlikova had too many options and got herself into a mess more often than not ( a bit like Nastase who would be her equivalent in men´s field)

[SoBad]

Originally Posted by kiki

She was the true princess of courts.Charm and Evonne go in the same sentence.

We used to sit around for hours, swinging in our hammocks, drinking Scotch and smoking Cubans.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by dangalak

From what I've seen of her, she combined the abilities of these two players, albeit to a lesser extent. is that true?

Mandlikova was nothing like Evert in either her stroke production or her approach to the game. She was more like Navratilova, except she was a better shotmaker from everywhere on the court, but, not as great an athlete.

[dangalak]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Mandlikova was nothing like Evert in either her stroke production or her approach to the game. She was more like Navratilova, except she was a better shotmaker from everywhere on the court, but, not as great an athlete.

I meant her craft. It's almost like she could hang with her from the baseline.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by dangalak

I meant her craft. It's almost like she could hang with her from the baseline.

I don't know what you mean by "her craft." Mandlikova didn't have the technique, or the shot tolerance, to "hang" with Evert from the baseline. To beat Evert, she had to attack. And then, she could prevail only when playing her absolute best and when Evert was something less than her best.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by SoBad

We used to sit around for hours, swinging in our hammocks, drinking Scotch and smoking Cubans.

You and Evonne?

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

I don't know what you mean by "her craft." Mandlikova didn't have the technique, or the shot tolerance, to "hang" with Evert from the baseline. To beat Evert, she had to attack. And then, she could prevail only when playing her absolute best and when Evert was something less than her best.

Absolutely true. Honestly, I can't think of two champions more polar opposite in virtually every respect. The only sense in which Hana could 'hang with Evert from the backcourt in a normal match, is in her movement about the court. It was very difficult for anyone to keep Hana out of position long enough to open up a court. Some of Evert's usual patterns , would be less effective against the super mobile players like Zina, Hana, or Martina than players like Sukova, Shriver and Kodhe Kilch. When I tried to figure out who got the occasional upset over Evert in her major winning years, it wasn't about playing style, or temperament. It was footspeed. Not sure exactly why, but less quick baseliners and S/Vers did not get one or two wins others might - until she got social security.

of course the other necessity to win any percentage vs Chris is weapons. Hana had those on both wings.

[suwanee4712]

Originally Posted by treblings

she was her own player, ultra-talented shotmaker who maybe didn´t have that champions gene to the extent of Evert and Navratilova.

Well said. Hana was supremely gifted and later in her career became better at following a gameplan than she was ever given credit for. But her talent was both her strength and her weakness because she didn't know how to harness it. She lacked the focus and tunnel vision that Martina, Steffi, and Chris possessed. The pressure that comes with being such a wanted figure was something she did not handle well.

Maybe most of all, Hana sometimes found losing acceptable. To be an upper level great you have to hate losing with every fiber of your being. This was also what prevented Evonne from doing better but maybe for a different reason.

She didn't enjoy the weekly grind of the tour and it showed in her record at non-slam events. She lived for the slams and thats where 8 of her 15 wins vs. Martina, Chris, and Steffi came. I don't know of another player with that many wins vs. the best of the best without being a fellow member of that group.

[NadalAgassi]

Sanchez Vicario has a combined 6 wins over Evert, Graf, and Seles in slams which is pretty good too. 4 of them came vs Graf, she was Seles's little lapdog but didnt get to play Seles during her peak period of 94-early 96. Evert she barely got to play but a #4 seeded Evert got spanked by unseeded 15 year old Sanchez at the 88 French which was an impressive performance.

Comparing Sanchez to Mandlikova is funny since Hana is about 5 times more talented, but about 5 times weaker in work ethic, consistency, mental strength. So hard to say who is better. I would probably say Hana since Sanchez's game was only effective against Graf. She was useless against Seles, Hingis, and even a fairly old (before she became really old) Navratilova. Hana only seemed fairly useless against Graf but dangerous for anyone else she played (I dont count Seles who she played twice in her final year and got walloped by).

[suwanee4712]

Originally Posted by BTURNER

Absolutely true. Honestly, I can't think of two champions more polar opposite in virtually every respect. The only sense in which Hana could 'hang with Evert from the backcourt in a normal match, is in her movement about the court. It was very difficult for anyone to keep Hana out of position long enough to open up a court. Some of Evert's usual patterns , would be less effective against the super mobile players like Zina, Hana, or Martina than players like Sukova, Shriver and Kodhe Kilch. When I tried to figure out who got the occasional upset over Evert in her major winning years, it wasn't about playing style, or temperament. It was footspeed. Not sure exactly why, but less quick baseliners and S/Vers did not get one or two wins others might - until she got social security.

of course the other necessity to win any percentage vs Chris is weapons. Hana had those on both wings.

Agreed. You can't beat Evert in a big match unless you have weapons and great movement. There's no other way.

Hana won a lot of baseline rallies with Chris either by smacking winners or by drawing errors from Chris with her ability to mix spins and angles. But that's a hard game to play and she was better off varying her approaches while mixing in some topspin and drop shots.

Anyone that has seen her 1981 French win know what versatility Hana was capable of. But its the 1983 French match that I hope will one day be widely available. It was a real testament to Chris that she won that day because Hana killed Chris repeatedly in baseline duels, lobs, and drop shots. I think thats where Martina got the idea to drop Chris so much in the 1984 French final. She also had a spectacular diving backhand drop volley that left Evert stunned.

[suwanee4712]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Sanchez Vicario has a combined 6 wins over Evert, Graf, and Seles in slams which is pretty good too. 4 of them came vs Graf, she was Seles's little lapdog but didnt get to play Seles during her peak period of 94-early 96. Evert she barely got to play but a #4 seeded Evert got spanked by unseeded 15 year old Sanchez at the 88 French which was an impressive performance.

Comparing Sanchez to Mandlikova is funny since Hana is about 5 times more talented, but about 5 times weaker in work ethic, consistency, mental strength. So hard to say who is better. I would probably say Hana since Sanchez's game was only effective against Graf. She was useless against Seles, Hingis, and even a fairly old (before she became really old) Navratilova. Hana only seemed fairly useless against Graf but dangerous for anyone else she played (I dont count Seles who she played twice in her final year and got walloped by).

I would say that few actually worked harder than Hana did. But ASV might be in that group. She got so much out of her game and had a great heart and fighting spirit.

ASV also had fewer first week losses than Hana did at the slams. But Hana never lost to anyone other than Martina or Chris in a slam SF or F. That makes me think that Hana would've done quite well against ASV, but thats purely speculation.

I wish that Hana's health and serve had held up for another couple of years because I think she would've gotten a few more wins vs. Graf. More than half of their meetings came at a time when Hana was serving Kournikova-like numbers of double faults. No one made an opponent pay for poor serving more than Graf did. It was hard to break Steffi and if you can't hold your own serve you have no shot. From the baseline, Hana's way of trying to beat Steffi was to hit hard and deep to her forehand to draw an error or come in and angle the ball away. This worked well in Paris in 1986. More players should've tried that.

With Seles, I find their 1990 US Hardcourts match very interesting. Hana led 4-0 in each set but lost 6-4 6-4. She also helped Novotna to understand how to beat Seles by serving her wide in both courts to make her switch to one hand or at least pull her off the court. I really believe Hana could've gotten a couple of wins off of Seles. Of course I say that knowing that if Hana played less than 80% of her best Seles would've obliterated her ala 1989 Brighton.

[Sharky-San]

I got to be a ball boy for two of Mandlikova's matches, singles and doubles with Wendy Turnbull, during a Virginia Slims stop in SF, 1987, she was amazing! very long and loopy strokes, her movement was impressive, best of any player in that era. Serve was a hard slice most of the time. I went to buy a Wilson Ultra 2 right after that tournament, I wanted to hit like Hana!!!

I was really there to check out Gabriela Sabatini! She was hot ...got to ball boy one of her doubles matches. She was traveling with another Argentine player, Gabriela Mosca, very talented but didn't pan out for her...

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by suwanee4712

I would say that few actually worked harder than Hana did. But ASV might be in that group. She got so much out of her game and had a great heart and fighting spirit.

You are much more familiar with WTA 80s tennis than I am, so in all honesty I really dont have that much insight into Hana's work ethic. My statement was probably unfair and just falling into general stereotypes of the players. Obviously ASV was more of a warrior on court, but she had to be with her game style, Hana could be a great competitor too when she wanted to be.

ASV also had fewer first week losses than Hana did at the slams. But Hana never lost to anyone other than Martina or Chris in a slam SF or F. That makes me think that Hana would've done quite well against ASV, but thats purely speculation.

Yeah you are right since most times they met it would have likely been in the semis or finals, as both are top 4 players in their primes in pretty much any era. Then again the players she would play at that stage of a slam besides Martina and Chris were not that strong in her era (other than Austin who she only played in quarterfinals). It would depend mostly on how Hana was playing, since ASV would be all over any inconsistency or lapses in her game, but if she reaches that stage the odds are higher she is playing well which would be bad news for ASV. I really dont see any leads on that matchup as I cant think of an ASV-type player of the Chris era, other than knowing ASV generally does not control her own destiny vs a superior shotmaker or better offensive player, even the ones she greatly troubled like Graf.

I wish that Hana's health and serve had held up for another couple of years because I think she would've gotten a few more wins vs. Graf. More than half of their meetings came at a time when Hana was serving Kournikova-like numbers of double faults. No one made an opponent pay for poor serving more than Graf did. It was hard to break Steffi and if you can't hold your own serve you have no shot. From the baseline, Hana's way of trying to beat Steffi was to hit hard and deep to her forehand to draw an error or come in and angle the ball away. This worked well in Paris in 1986. More players should've tried that.

Interesting points on the French Open match. It was often said players should have tried to attack the Graf forehand that way rather than playing away from it and allowing her to set up her inside out forehand patterns with you trying to expose her backhand corner. It must have been a scary thing to do.

With Seles, I find their 1990 US Hardcourts match very interesting. Hana led 4-0 in each set but lost 6-4 6-4. She also helped Novotna to understand how to beat Seles by serving her wide in both courts to make her switch to one hand or at least pull her off the court. I really believe Hana could've gotten a couple of wins off of Seles. Of course I say that knowing that if Hana played less than 80% of her best Seles would've obliterated her ala 1989 Brighton.

I know Hana was well past her prime at the time of those matches facing a young Seles which is why I didnt reach too much into them. I really have no idea what kind of a matchup that would be for Hana as there is nobody in Hana's era that played like Seles, and even Graf does not play the same way Seles does overall. Your points are interesting though, I did not see that 1990 U.S Hard Courts match or know Hana was up in the 2nd set. I did see the Brighton match, and it was a major ouch. Seles just ruthlessly overpowering, and Hana was getting killed on her serve games, but she wasnt serving well either.

[suwanee4712]

NadalAgassi, its fun to think of hypotheticals and I am admittedly being hopeful towards Hana. A series of matches with Seles would've included more Brighton-like results too often for my tastes. Just like with Steffi she would've struggled to hold serve perhaps even more so with Seles mostly because at least with Steffi she could spin the ball in to the backhand.

I wonder what BTurner would think about this but I always felt that it was not a coincidence that Chris and Hana left the game at the same time. They both hit such a nice clean and uncomplicated ball. Players like Gaby were coming onto the scene hitting these snarling heavy strokes that took more to counteract. When players began to adapt to that facing a classical stroker like Chris or Hana probably became a relief. Thats just a theory though because Mary Joe hit a similarly flat ball.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by suwanee4712

NadalAgassi, its fun to think of hypotheticals and I am admittedly being hopeful towards Hana. A series of matches with Seles would've included more Brighton-like results too often for my tastes. Just like with Steffi she would've struggled to hold serve perhaps even more so with Seles mostly because at least with Steffi she could spin the ball in to the backhand.

I wonder what BTurner would think about this but I always felt that it was not a coincidence that Chris and Hana left the game at the same time. They both hit such a nice clean and uncomplicated ball. Players like Gaby were coming onto the scene hitting these snarling heavy strokes that took more to counteract. When players began to adapt to that facing a classical stroker like Chris or Hana probably became a relief. Thats just a theory though because Mary Joe hit a similarly flat ball.

I do think the game was changing right before the eyes of the old guard. The players were generally falling into two categories. Huge ball bashers who hit big servers and very hard and flat off the ground like Graf. Basically the top 30 was atleast half made up of Graf and Seles wannabees, inferior clones to their power oriented games, but even they producing something the likes of wasnt common thoughout most of the 80s. Or heavy topspiners with tons of violent action on the ball like Sabatini, Sanchez Vicario, Martinez. The power players were most difficulty for an attacker like Naratilova to face. The heavy spinners were more difficult for a classic baseliner or all courter like Evert or Mandlikova to face.

I think the change was equally hard on alot of different types of players. The serve and volleyers except Martina and the newcomer Jana Novotna (but in her case moreso after the womens game declined after the Seles stabbing) ceased to be a major factor. Sukova made a slam final in 93 taking advantage of the hold left by the Seles stabbing, but never that big a factor after 89/early 1990. Shriver wasnt a threat again after 88. Hana went into an obvious decline on her own, it is hard to tell how much of her rapid decline and early retirement was the change in the game to the new belting levels of power and the heavy spin, and how much of that was her own decline in form. Probably a good combination of both.

Had these players been born in this era I am sure they were talented enough to adapt and still be top players. As it was making the changes either midway or late in your career was too hard for the majority. Personally I find the players of the 80s more enjoyable to watch. I prefer watching tapes of them play. The 90s produced some great tennis and great matches, but the styles were all too predictable and the game played either through the one dimensional scope of a pure slugfest (Graf, Seles, Capriati, Pierce), or a grindfest last women standing type of attrition war (Sabatini, Sanchez, Fernandez, Martinez). Unique players with their own style, who were in some ways a throwback to the old days of point construction and nuances like a Novotna or Zvereva were rare, and these players were not successful enough to encourage it amongst the young juniors coming up.

Of course the 90s were still godly compared to now. We now have players without the talent to reach the incredible ball bashing heights of Graf, Seles, or the Williams, but attempt in vain to anyway and hit every second shot out, pushers who do nothing but try and be the last women standing on court like Wozniacki, Radwanska, players who hick with so much spin and such obsctructive technique they are an eyesore to watch and shank almost every third shot they hit (sometimes landing in) like Stosur and Schiavone, injuries galore. It would be nice to see a return to more old school tennis on the womens tour. Hingis and Henin were by far the most unique and interesting players to emerge in the 2000s, perhaps by neccessity being so small, but both were pushed out of the game very young either by the power game (Hingis) or the wear and tear on the body and mind of the extreme physical effort and years of work it took to ramp up their own power and fitness to almost inhuman heights for someone so small (Henin).

[suwanee4712]

Originally Posted by Sharky-San

I got to be a ball boy for two of Mandlikova's matches, singles and doubles with Wendy Turnbull, during a Virginia Slims stop in SF, 1987, she was amazing! very long and loopy strokes, her movement was impressive, best of any player in that era. Serve was a hard slice most of the time. I went to buy a Wilson Ultra 2 right after that tournament, I wanted to hit like Hana!!!

I was really there to check out Gabriela Sabatini! She was hot ...got to ball boy one of her doubles matches. She was traveling with another Argentine player, Gabriela Mosca, very talented but didn't pan out for her...

Wendy was good for Hana. She calmed her down and made Hana laugh. They had some great battles with Khode and Sukova, both former partners of Hana's. They also had some great matches with McNeil and Garrison. But I will always remember their YEC win over Martina and Pam. They lost a close 3 set final to that team at the US Open that same year.

Hana and Gaby would've made an jnteresting team. I remember in tge 90's Hana teamed with Evonne and BJK occasionally on the legends tour. Unfortunately the team of Hana and Evonne didn't win very often. They were too much alike.