Mindset of a champion?

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by WoodIndoors

I think it may have something to do with our practice habits where, besides spending majority of time learning the right technique, I make her play points with her brother so that there's either some 'prize' for the winner but even more often some appropriate "humiliation" reserved for the loser - like singing loudly some (stupid) pop song while jogging around the park (which 'punishment' she and her brother have always decided together) ...

Such deja vu feeling when reading this. I am pretty sure I read something about American youth sports on The Onion that had almost this exact same language.

[WoodIndoors]

===================

[Woolybugger]

If you want to develop a champion from such a young age, I'd suggest looking at China, Russia and the former eastern european bloc countries. There, they whisk away 6yr olds into full-time boarding sports academies, make them train 8 hours/day and basically raise sports robots. They are 100% focused, have a killer instinct second to none and will use all means necessary to win.

[Soianka]

My question is, why does the loser have to be punished?

[klu375]

Originally Posted by tennis5

And when comparing American tennis academies to Russian academies,

you state -

I often wonder where these kids come from who clap and holler for their opponent's double faults or when the opponent falls.

Got it. Now I understand the mindset.

From my experience they come from Texas with last names like Johnson or Smith Had the whole opponent's family and her double partner cheering my daughter's double-faults and unforced errors.
We know you have a grudge. So what did these "russian" kids do to your son?
(could not resist, the forum is sleepy lately, TCF is on his usual time-out as he went overboard again)

[WoodIndoors]

Originally Posted by Soianka

My question is, why does the loser have to be punished?

'fear' of 'punishment' in practise match makes it more exciting, and therefore more enjoyable...it simulates matchplay better - no?

Don't you find playing a game more enjoyable when there is some nice 'humiliation' waiting for the loser?

[Woolybugger]

I don't think the "mindset of a champion" derives joy from humiliating the opponent. That is not a champion I would admire nor ever want my child to be.

[Tennishacker]

Originally Posted by WoodIndoors

'fear' of 'punishment' in practise match makes it more exciting, and therefore more enjoyable...it simulates matchplay better - no?

Don't you find playing a game more enjoyable when there is some nice 'humiliation' waiting for the loser?

I think it's time to let this thread DIE.

[ga tennis]

Originally Posted by Woolybugger

I don't think the "mindset of a champion" derives joy from humiliating the opponent. That is not a champion I would admire nor ever want my child to be.

Winning or losing really doesnt matter at all. I think my daughter wins if she gets out there and does it right. If she goes out and hits out on every ball and competes she wins!!

[10ismom]

Originally Posted by klu375

From my experience they come from Texas with last names like Johnson or Smith Had the whole opponent's family and her double partner cheering my daughter's double-faults and unforced errors.
We know you have a grudge. So what did these "russian" kids do to your son?
(could not resist, the forum is sleepy lately, TCF is on his usual time-out as he went overboard again)

I have been following this thread and love #1 COACH's advice on "how to create a mindset of a CHAMPION".

Kinda surprised Mikej did not jump into this thread and turned it around already.

[WoodIndoors]

Originally Posted by Woolybugger

I don't think the "mindset of a champion" derives joy from humiliating the opponent. That is not a champion I would admire nor ever want my child to be.

Well, you write humiliating I wrote 'humiliating' and for me the latter is a pivotal part of top level sports, 'Humiliating' for example by hitting a perfectly timed dropshot which makes opponent (also world class player) stumble, even makes her look like a total novice for a second. In the eyes of you, crowd, herself...

To say that it's not enjoyable to do that...I don't know...should you be sorry?

Agassi made sometimes his opponents run some extra, wanted to 'humiliate' them...no?

Well, to be outplayed like that is different sort of humiliation than singing some stupid song after losing, of course...

#1coach mentioned business...what do you think the reactions are at Samsung when Apple stumbles...

[10ismom]

Originally Posted by WoodIndoors

Well, I'm definitely against that kind of behaviour and will not tolerate that from my players. And I'm not sure are those things even related...?

For clarification I'm no American but definitely no Russian either. I just happen to know some Russian tennis families and their academies and that old post was propably a bit overgeneralization.

I'm just thinking what's the route to the top for my girl, if she decides to give it a shot and shows enough talent (at the same time I'm also being a 'massage therapist' for a bit older boy whose "prodigy? - video" his dad posted here year or so ago for comments (dad asked me to thank again for those )

WoodIndoors,

Let her play some tournaments and test her skills. You'll see where the holes are and you all can work on that.

[WoodIndoors]

Originally Posted by 10ismom

WoodIndoors,

Let her play some tournaments and test her skills. You'll see where the holes are and you all can work on that.

10ismom,

Thanks for the advice but....not yet.

Maybe next fall earliest, propably not even then. she must know how to attack with her second serve first...

[10ismom]

Originally Posted by WoodIndoors

10ismom,

Thanks for the advice but....not yet.

Maybe next fall earliest, propably not even then. she must know how to attack with her second serve first...

Sounds like a good plan. Her age is a dilemma because of 10Under.

Don't wait till 13 though. I read somewhere girls developed majority of their skills by 12.

[WoodIndoors]

Originally Posted by ga tennis

Winning or losing really doesnt matter at all. I think my daughter wins if she gets out there and does it right. If she goes out and hits out on every ball and competes she wins!!

I think I get your point all right, concentrate things you can control, task vs. outcome oriented goals etc...

...but at the same time toughest competitors I know personally are the ones who refuse to lose. To whom winning and losing means absolutely everything (at least until the game is over). In team sports they often are the mvp's. And, believe it or not, their mindset have been more or less the same since childhood. They love winning, absolutely hate losing, and it's the outcome that motivates them most.

When not playing they can be the nicest persons, ready to give a hand for how little reasons (well, they can be quite selfish, ego centered also but not necessarily), but dare to play some game with them...

Is it innate?

Well, majority of elite athletes are not first childs

[ga tennis]

Originally Posted by WoodIndoors

10ismom,

Thanks for the advice but....not yet.

Maybe next fall earliest, propably not even then. she must know how to attack with her second serve first...

Well I guess she will never play a tournament. In my over 30 years around tennis I have never seen a girl attack with there second seve. Keep dreaming!!! 80% or more of the women on tour can't attack with there first serve. Let her play when she wants to.Have fun!!!! I know I didn't spell their right.

[ga tennis]

Originally Posted by WoodIndoors

I think I get your point all right, concentrate things you can control, task vs. outcome oriented goals etc...

...but at the same time toughest competitors I know personally are the ones who refuse to lose. To whom winning and losing means absolutely everything (at least until the game is over). In team sports they often are the mvp's. And, believe it or not, their mindset have been more or less the same since childhood. They love winning, absolutely hate losing, and it's the outcome that motivates them most.

When not playing they can be the nicest persons, ready to give a hand for how little reasons (well, they can be quite selfish, ego centered also but not necessarily), but dare to play some game with them...

Is it innate?

Well, majority of elite athletes are not first childs

These are also the little girls who at 12 can't deal with losing and play to win instead of developing weapons for the future.I think it's AWESOME that she is such a fighter but you as the parent have to skate a fine line.Let her know winning doesn't matter if your not building for the future when it really matters. GOOD LUCK WELCOME TO THE BOARD!!!! A lot of good people here.

[Oz_Rocket]

On the whole mindset of a champ thing, one of my favourite sporting quotes comes from 5 times world motorbike champion Mick Doohan.

When fellow Australian bike rider Casey Stoner was competing in the lower classes he was always one of the fastest riders, but after taking the lead early in a race he'd more often than not drop the bike pushing too hard for the win.

When Doohan was asked about this sad state of affairs, he quickly replied it wasn't a problem as you can teach someone to stay on a bike but you can't teach them how to "be fast". Stoner has gone on to win two world championships and has ridden bikes fast that no one else can.

With tennis we can teach my son to be more consistent and improve his footwork and technique. What I can't as easily give him is that desire to compete and win. Him being the one always at me to go for a hit so he can improve. Always at me about what tournaments are coming up and how many events he can enter.

Like I found out as a junior, at some point his ambition will outweight his talent and he will find his own level. At which point I hope, unlike me, he stays with tennis and accepts that improvement will be slower but he can still enjoy the game.

[WoodIndoors]

====================

[ClairHarmony]

Originally Posted by WoodIndoors

My player, 9 years old, started a year ago, likes to hit hard, wants to win every single point in practise. She runs like h.ll to reach every ball. Real fighter.

Now she says she wants to start playing tournaments. My plan is to postpone that until her game is "ready" enough. But she says she can't wait to start competing because she wants to win 'real matches' and also because she's "soo eager to make the other girl cry for losing her".

Should I try to convince her that that's a wrong motive to play tennis? That tennis is "just a game"? It seems pretty important to her

She could well be an ISTP or ESTP from the sounds of it. Think ESTP BJ Penn, and his first BJJ/Jack-of-all-trade's coaches reaction to him.

First time sparring w. him, and out of nowhere, bop-bop-bop...bop-bop-bop. ESTP's love to bop. ESPECIALLY at the start, that's the great thing about their spirit.

Uber confident from the start, out of the box ready to compete in sports, sounds like it to me. Just a hunch.

Tennis is a VERY good sport for their natural spirits. It's a VERY good match. For an INFP, that's just not enough. Too much inspiration required of a "spiritual" nature, to extract their best...better, more "comfy" playing the behind-the-scenes-hero...better for team sports where they can blend in, and not feel "selfish" about going for it.

ESTP's like to talk trash in general, it's what it is. It's not necessarily a bad thing. U have to understand, that if u take that away from them, they're no longer the same animal. That spirit, that gives life it's pulse. A little ribbing is a GOOD thing. So many who hate on Agassi, just don't get that. U take that away, u lose the soul.

Everything up to a point, and in balance. Bad things happen when people try to force their souls on others, w/out stopping to think why it is that we have very obviously different *spirit-orientations* irrespective of being family.

Look at what happened to Marinovich (ISTP ruthless like a Bob Knight, when out of control, and not seeing it as important enough to become balanced in type), and his ESTP son. Bad things happen when we ignore the soul. But the most important part of that story, is how the elder Marinovich later sought out Niednagel, with one pertinent question...*why?* Where did it all go wrong, long after it didn't matter anymore. That was the dad in him talking, proving it's never too late to prove that u cared all along. That was really heart-warming and inspiring to me, even if it ended in "failure?" I think not, w/out the extreme samples in life, we'd be lost w/out any real need for humanity. It's what makes this world round, and not square you dope. If I had any kids, that's what I'd tell them. Don't do dope. Rule #2, give me really good back rubs whenever I want. Rule #3, really good lasagne or bust, by the time I come home. Otherwise,no Xbox720 for u, ha-ha!!! Oh, man, that's just straight up too ruthless, even for me, forget that last suggestion.

ESTP's wanna compete...like *gang-busters,* right from the start, let them come out of that gate. They won't be happy otherwise.

The issue is this. IF they are of the prodigious sort, there's a real potential for them to become that bully who CAN back it up...and, no, that's NOT a good thing. Why? Because, the bigger they are, the harder they'll fall. You have to protect them from that, bcs. sooner or later, there's always gonna be someone bigger and/or "badder." And why they talk trash? Bcs. like all of us, it usually *helps* them.


We all have our own "personas" if you will, it's subtle, but it's there. An ISTP typically likes to have something to get mad it, put these things in their head...think a Lendl, pounding on his noggin' with his pointy fingers. An ESTP likes to talk *hype* to get the juices going, to talk trash, in that playful way...that's just a little mischevious feeling by nature, think live war on a coffee break...think, the British hypester, Dan Hardy, to me he's a very probable "classic" ESTP. Note how though a TKD base, initially, he actually seems to rarely use kicks, don't matter his training. HIs *natural* spirit inclination to me ist still going to be the same, gonna prefer those punches...that *quick*-hitting, *sharp,* *snappy* kapow, like feeling you know? Not necessarily, over frilly and fancy (ST's frequently think too much abstract is "BS," in nature, it's just their nature)...and? A *killer instinct.* When see an opening, they'll typically, they have no problem, think Penn-Sherk ending. They'll explode, their eyes light up, they'll "catch" see that opening immediately, very alert too. Like Pirihanna/heyenas...u know?

Problem is, this, they only talk the hype, because they *need* to...it's a mask. It's the *easy* way for them to perform their best. You're daughter may think she's being tough by doing that, but really she's not. It's just a mask for our insecurities. Our "natural" ideal performance personas, are good for the good days, but will never see you through the bad. That's the problem with relying on those tried and true unique little ways we use to get ourselves "pumped up." Watch and see if Pioline at his best, don't like to play that "behind the scenes superhero." See, that's what I mean. Problem is, that on Sunday, and it's no longer behind the scenes...that was the problem he always ran into...and that's what I mean.

See, how when Leconte (ENTP) finally stood up to McEnroe on the seniors tour, finally had enough, and literally sprint and lept the net, to get in his mug, to tell him to shut the bleep up...McEnroe's bluff, he was like all, whaa...? Didn'dt know how to respond. Watch how Connors and McEnroe only seemed to go into their histrionics modes, when losing momentum...don't think for as econd the other player's didn't know. Leconte finally did something about it, and McEnroe's "ideal" performance state persona or whatever was proven to be just what I say, a *mask* for our *human* insecurities. We all have them.

Why do ESTP's love to talk spirited trash? Because, they *want* people to show up, they are like adrenaline junkies, they love to live on the edge, push buttons, in search of that "surge," that "jolt" if you will...but rarely that spiritual by nature. We're all still human deep down. A type like that that thrives on that, how do they overcome their "fears?" That's right, by talking over them. Be finding a way to get that "high," they can *usually* overcome, and when we see that our persona maks or whatever get results time after time (except for thsoe times when we suck dump trucks), what do we do? We keep on going back to that well, time and itme again, w/out working on *truly* making ourselves stronger to the core. It's just superficial lip service, and we evolve not one iota this way.

Look at Forget in that heroic Davis Cup victory of 91, that's NOT "normal" for his INFP type. He was *centered,* in the soul, that's not relying on no "short term" gimic, like a "go to" drug to carry you through. That took late-career maturity to reach that point.

Our "personas," whatever they may be, tend to fail you when u need them most in life, when failing to recognize the best (and worst) qualities in all our types. It's just a better way of looking at things. U need to know these things. Look at the latest X-Factor, where contestants were paired in twos, and what did it lead to? That's right subtle and not so subtle sabotaging, by the "stronger" of those twos. But there are rarely any do-overs in life, "life and death desparate" swing junctures like that don't come along very often, and the desparation of many of these contenstants unfathomable to those who only ever veered according to the books...but it is what it is. "Be aware, not weary." Don't be afraid of no homies, no more, know what I mean? The more you're able to see through all that, X-ray, straight to the soul, that's true strength. No matter how far out, that's balance, and then there is always hope...plus, you're a better person too.

Protecting nothing. Whenever, we mask our insecurities and weaknesses, it is what it is, it's just a coverup, and makes you weaker and inertia-proof. I don't want to end up inert in court. Don't let it get to that point.