"So you only play 5.0?"

[psYcon]

Originally Posted by 0d1n

A SET ?? No 4.5 will ever get more than a couple games (tops) from a serious pro woman. The couple of games are really invented. I allowed those games in case our 4.5 has a huge serve and somehow gets 3 aces in a game or something.
From the back of the court, they are going to struggle to win points...let alone games.
Some people (not you ... I'm talking in general) who make statements like ... WTA is so bad...compared to the ATP, and then make assumptions and generalizations about what that means in terms of male amateurs playing pro women...have no clue what a pro means, and they never played at a half serious level.
I repeat, I would struggle to get games from a current 16 yo junior girl who's in the top 30 ITF (18's). A pro woman (yeh, Radwanska included) would mop the floor with me. I've seen Radwanska play live by the way. She hits a clean and pretty hard ball, moves great, and serves very well for a woman. People who think she's a "pusher" are comparing her with Serena (who's a freak), and/or generally have no clue.
I don't have a US rating, being a foreigner, but I play competitively around here and if I would move to the US I would self rate as a 4.5 and I think (actually I know) I would do very well at that level.
Take that however you like.

true. I actually have seen a 4.5 guy beaten 6-0, 6-1 by a 5.0 girl. Yes you read that correct. Granted he may have been a weak 4.5 but if a 5.0 can destroy him like that then what damage would a WTA pro do I can't imagine.

[LeeD]

As you all know, not every 4.5 guy plays the same, and not every 5.0 girl does either, whether it's 5.0, 5.5, or higher.
It's always a question of matchups.
There are hardly ever a match between men and women where it's a serious match by both players.
Lots of rules can be involved. In my past, things like "not net play"..."no flat serves into the body",....and of course, "no hard spin serves into the body", where everyday practice rules when practicing with the higher level women.

[ctromano]

i lost once to a 14 year old top junior out in Kentucky... she killed me with depth, spin and consistency. I learned never to doubt myself, have not lost to a 14 year old girl since and I've played at least 5 more in my youth. but i too have lost to a 14 year old girl, I was 18 at the time and she was my sister

[corbind]

I love this thread

[0d1n]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Odin, you better check your reading comprehension skills again....
We're basically saying the SAME thing.
However, I can't say what you based your answer off of, but my basis is from having 5.5-7.0 women to practice and hit with, while I was still a C player, or 3.5, who made A/Open 3rd rounds by the end of that year. In case you don't understand, that means in April, I played my first C tourney, got to finals and lost. By Oct., went 3 round in Pleasanton's A/Open.
If you wish, I can list a pretty high level of players who were my practice partners, my g/f's, or my buds, starting when I was a less than 3.5 ...CeciMartinez, a former top 10 ranked US woman's player.

I've re-checked my reading comprehension skills. They are fine .
I don't think we're saying quite the same thing. I am saying no 4.5 will take a game from any top 100 WTA woman unless he lucks out and hits 3 aces in a game. You are mentioning "SETS" as a possibility (although remote possibility). I am saying sets are NOT a possibility...ever.
I am taking it further and also saying that any 14-15 yo girl who has realistic chances of making it to the WTA will mop the floor with any 4.5. The 4.5 will win games, but not sets, unless the kid has a really bad day and is also being "childish" in her choices.
Any 14-15 yo BOY who has realistic chances of making it to the ATP, will beat 4.5's 12-0, 18-0, 24-0 ...etc in 90 percent of their matches. Again...4.5's with huge serves might get isolated games if they luck out and hit aces. Otherwise...fat chance.

Originally Posted by Sumo

There was a Tennis Mag article a few years ago where a 4.0 guy took on an accomplished 12 yr old girl and took a beat down.

Sandbagger!

Nah...I play competitively but still in amateur leagues, similar to the ones you have. Not a sandbagger, just passionate about tennis and more aware about these NTRP ratings and what they mean than many Americans (it seems) .

[0d1n]

Originally Posted by SoBad

Even the prime Sampras could never challenge someone like Kafelnikov at the French.

Someone like Kafelnikov, who's only a double major champion, and would have had a couple more French Open's if he wouldn't have run into inspired all time clay great Kuerten.

Originally Posted by atatu

Didn't Sampras beat YK on clay in Russia for the Davis Cup, or was that someone else he beat. All I remember is the way he collapsed and cramped after winning two singles maches and the doubles.

He did beat Kafelnikov on clay in the Davis Cup and also at the world team cup, when K was pretty young still.
Kafelnikov had a problem upstairs against Sampras...ever since their first match in 94 at the Australian Open, when Kafelnikov played a superb match and still lost 9-7 in the 5th.
I still would have backed K to win 9 out of 10 matches at the French...but they never met on clay after that French Open semi that he won.

[floridatennisdude]

Originally Posted by 0d1n

I've re-checked my reading comprehension skills. They are fine .
I don't think we're saying quite the same thing. I am saying no 4.5 will take a game from any top 100 WTA woman unless he lucks out and hits 3 aces in a game. You are mentioning "SETS" as a possibility (although remote possibility). I am saying sets are NOT a possibility...ever.
I am taking it further and also saying that any 14-15 yo girl who has realistic chances of making it to the WTA will mop the floor with any 4.5. The 4.5 will win games, but not sets, unless the kid has a really bad day and is also being "childish" in her choices.
Any 14-15 yo BOY who has realistic chances of making it to the ATP, will beat 4.5's 12-0, 18-0, 24-0 ...etc in 90 percent of their matches. Again...4.5's with huge serves might get isolated games if they luck out and hit aces. Otherwise...fat chance.

I agree. I'm a 4.5 and I don't know if I'd take more than a game or two off a female ranked in the top 1000. Lee's example sounds like something from the 80's, before fitness and technology took the game to another level.

We are having a Women's 10k in town right now. 90% of these girls would plow through any 4.5 men's player I know. Pros are 6.0-7.0 players if they are competitive on tour. Saying a 4.5 can hang with a 6.0+ is assenine. It's like saying a 3.0 can hang with a 4.5.

[0d1n]

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

I agree. I'm a 4.5 and I don't know if I'd take more than a game or two off a female ranked in the top 1000. Lee's example sounds like something from the 80's, before fitness and technology took the game to another level.

We are having a Women's 10k in town right now. 90% of these girls would plow through any 4.5 men's player I know. Pros are 6.0-7.0 players if they are competitive on tour. Saying a 4.5 can hang with a 6.0+ is assenine. It's like saying a 3.0 can hang with a 4.5.

You are right. Going even further...the difference between a 3.0 and a 4.5 can be overcome in most cases by a few years of serious proper training...even for regular, ordinary people.
The difference between a 4.5 and a 6.0 +, although it seems similar on the NTRP scale, might take only training in some cases...but in most cases it can't be overcome, because many average Joe's could never get to 6.0 + regardless of the amount of training. At that level the luck you've had with genetics is much more important that it is at 4.5.
An overweight guy with somewhat lacking athletic ability can hang in 4.5 if he has tennis skills...but that same guy could never overcome his physical limitations when talking about 6.0 + levels. Never...not a chance...no matter how skilled in tennis technique he gets.
Movement is so important at that level that perfect technique alone doesn't cut it anymore...you need to have been born with no significant athletic limitations, and to have picked up a racquet at a certain age...otherwise...you've missed the boat.
A guy can pick up a racquet at 30 yo and comfortably get to 4.5 if he puts in the time and effort. The same guy will never get to 6.0 regardless of the time he puts in if he starts at 30.

[floridatennisdude]

^^^great points. So, your take us that a 6-0,6-0 beat down from a 6.0 on a 4.5 would be worse than the 6-0,6-0 beat down that 4.5 would put on a 3.0. I would tend to agree. I think some wouldn't, because they truly don't understand what a 6.0 is.

[LeeD]

I think you guys are all wrong...
You are presupposing too many generalities.
You expect every single 4.5 male to play only from the baseline, not use their lefty serves to their best advantage, and not hit heavy slice shots, running the female, instead of trying to outhit the female.
And you expect every 5.5+ woman to run down every drop shot, to dig out low skidded slices (which they NEVER see playing against other junior girls), and you expect them to hit solid passing shots and lobs against a deep sliced approach (again when they NEVER face against other junior girls).
Remember, the guys game is different from the girl's game. If the guy plays the girl's game, like stay back, no flat serves or heavy slices into the body, or wide twists that take them both feet off the doubles courts, the girl WILL WIN bagels and breadsticks.
But once you're allowed to hit drop shots, wide short angles, hard shots into the body, and real first serves, THEN the odd change, .....not saying the guy will win a set, but it certainly get's a lot closer.

[LeeD]

I don't know about your rules when you played/practiced with 5.5 women, but I NEVER got to hit with them if there weren't rules which limited my game. Now this includes over 7 women rated 5.5 and higher. If I broke the rules, no hit next time, period.

[beernutz]

Originally Posted by 0d1n

I've re-checked my reading comprehension skills. They are fine .
I don't think we're saying quite the same thing. I am saying no 4.5 will take a game from any top 100 WTA woman unless he lucks out and hits 3 aces in a game. You are mentioning "SETS" as a possibility (although remote possibility). I am saying sets are NOT a possibility...ever.
I am taking it further and also saying that any 14-15 yo girl who has realistic chances of making it to the WTA will mop the floor with any 4.5. The 4.5 will win games, but not sets, unless the kid has a really bad day and is also being "childish" in her choices.
Any 14-15 yo BOY who has realistic chances of making it to the ATP, will beat 4.5's 12-0, 18-0, 24-0 ...etc in 90 percent of their matches. Again...4.5's with huge serves might get isolated games if they luck out and hit aces. Otherwise...fat chance.



Nah...I play competitively but still in amateur leagues, similar to the ones you have. Not a sandbagger, just passionate about tennis and more aware about these NTRP ratings and what they mean than many Americans (it seems) .

The flaw in your argument is that you are trying to take an outsiders look at the characteristics of the NTRP system and the 4.5 level in particular and extrapolate them to actual results of a hypothetical match with a top 1000 female. This is akin to being a restaurant reviewer who only looks at a menu and the chef's recipes and resume then uses that data to rate his meal.

The biggest flaw in your argument is that the NTRP system is far from perfect. I can guarantee you that there are current legitimate computer-rated 4.5s in the US who possess 5.0 level skills and are possibly even better than that. So now the argument becomes could a man with 5.0 level skills (or even better) take multiple games or sets from a top 1000 woman? I think it would be easy to find a male in this category who regularly hits monster serves and was a decent returner and match them up with a top 1000 woman who had weak serve and return skills and I don't think the results are predictable at all. Cherry pick a six foot six inch male with a booming serve and match them against the shortest and weakest returning WTA top 1000 female and you are still guaranteeing the female wins with bagels and breadsticks? I'll take a piece of that action any day and twice on Sundays.

[floridatennisdude]

LeeD, I think you just don't really know what a 5.5+ female player plays like anymore. It's not a top 10 NorCal woman from 1975.

This is a decent D1 player at a major college or a very top player at a mid major. They are fast. They hit big. They serve strong. They play the net. And when things aren't working, they adjust. 6.0+ are the very elite of D1 that travel the circuit all summer and into the fall, probably ranked under 1000 in the WORLD.

I only give this respect because I've hit with a couple college players. I'm a 4.5 with a .500 ish record in league. I can't consistently take games off a D1 female. That's my perspective in 2012. Catch some Stanford or Cal matches this spring and bounce by a $50k circuit event.

[LeeD]

Funny you should mention that.... I watched for about an hour, the Cal matches at Hellman this past Sunday.
But once again, YOU don't have a Open level serve. I did.
YOU didn't try to WIN against the woman, you only played your baseline game, which a 5.5 woman is far superior at over a 4.5 man. The man has to play a MAN'S game against the woman, not HER game against her.
You didn't dropshot and shortangle her constantly. YOU didn't hit into her body, come to net, and vary your approach half/low volleys.
You played baseline tennis, didn't you?

[floridatennisdude]

^^^the few times we played points, I struggled to even get to the net. It's easy to say "go to the net" and altogether different to do it successfully when you are at such a skill differential. They may be girls, but they are near world class athletes.

Do you think a 40 year old male runner (former hs track star) can beat a college female sprinter in their event?

[LeeD]

Your last question first. Elite women run what at the 100? Maybe 10.8 seconds? The elite men run in the higher 9's.
I think there are some 40 year old men who can run in the high 10's, yes. Not every single 40 year old male, but the ones who still have some snap left in their legs.
Yes, it's hard to get to net on THEIR serves. On yours, it should be 80% and pretty easy, if you have a serve! Now if you push the ball in at 90 mph, top/slice it only to one spot, where they can step in, turn, and hit it, you cannot, and I cannot, successfully get to net.
On their serves, you have to play the short angles, the wide angles, the drop shot/lob combos, and play almost ANYTHING but baseline topspin tennis. You play the baseline topspin game if you're good at it, or if you want to sacrifice a few points hoping for an opening, but once that opening..their errors..happen and it get's to ad yours, you play MY game, not yours.
My game is all net play when I serve. You can pass me clean 3 times on my serve, and the game is not over until I make 2 stupid mistakes. S/V is all about forgetting your opponent's lucky winners, mishits, or your own stupid shots (which I can do pretty regularly), but to play the overall percentages....and that percentage is, an athletic GUY can outquick a trained woman.
He cannot hope to outhit that woman. He might overpower her on a FEW shots, but they have to be on his choosing. Play her game, it's bagels and breadsticks very quickly. Play the all court man's game, it can come down to who executes the big shots at the right time.
Playing a top level woman is more like playing an accomplished counter puncher man than anything else. You do get beat on a few points, but overall, you beat yourself by allowing her to move you around.
Don't allow it, move her first, and move her often.

[LeeD]

Oh, one of my hitting partners, once a month, in 1978, was TomBrown. He was a counterpuncher/pusher, much better than any 6.0 woman of the time.

[floridatennisdude]

So, with all this "knowledge" of the game, how are you not a touring pro's coach? Way better life than sanding walls!

[NTRPolice]

The only way I can see a 4.5 taking games/set/match/whatever off a "pro female" is if they can just manhandle the girl. That's the only way I can take games off the college girls that I know. They're not exactly 5.5's, but I can see it scaling the same way.

You are not going to junk ball them, out consistency them, or out fitness them. That I know for sure. lol.

If you want to have any chance at all, you're going to have to basically manhandle them and beat them with pure power and getting the "good end" of the statistics more often than not.

You're going to need aces.
You're going to have to force bad returns.
You're going to have to blast winners off their serve.
You're going to have to pass them if they come in.
You're going to have to pound corners hard, very hard.

There is no way I can see a 4.5 winning against a pro lady any other way besides raw power and "risky" placement and shot selection.

[LeeD]

Should we apply some HISTORY here?
BobbyRiggs, an old man, out of shape, down 2 full levels from when he was a 7.0, beat a current pro woman.
BobbyRiggs, an older man, more out of shape, almost hung in with BillieJeanKing, a 7.0 woman with all court skills.
Now, can a 4.5 man with some skills, and some power, and some smartness/tactics, get 3 games off a college playing Div1 woman?
Comes down to.... WHICH 4.5 man, and which 5.5 woman.