Where do you put Agassi on your GOAT list (if you have one)?

[Carsomyr]

Originally Posted by kiki

Laver won pro majors against fellas such as Gonzales,Hoad,Rosewall,Segura,Gimeno,Olmedo and a few more greats.Vines had his share of pro majors, but Tilden was really old, although I have no problem accepting that Perry was a helluva player and competitor.But you can´t ever put Vines in Laver´s league.Similar to comparing Emerson, a great player to Gonzales, an absolute all time beast

Gonzales, Hoad, etc. weren't exactly spring chickens either.

And I'm not saying Vines is in Laver's league, in either peak performance or achievements. But you're creating a pretty obvious double standard when you laud one man's performance in pro majors and completely dismiss the other's.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

Agassi´s second only to Connors for two handed backhands.Borg,Mc Millan,Browmich,Bruguera,Djokovic are also excellent tough not as good as Connors and agassi strokes IMO.

Rosewall´s one handed was considered not only the best ever for long time, but one of those historical shots like Gonzales serve and Tilden forehand.

However,Laver,Edberg,Budge could have been as good if not better in terms of raw power.Ashe,Kodes,Orantes,Vilas,Kuerten,Korda, Lutz/Stolle/Becker on the return of serve,Pietrangeli and a few others were also excellent stuff.

Excellent analysis.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Excellent analysis.

I hope you like the Little Master BH

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Carsomyr

Gonzales, Hoad, etc. weren't exactly spring chickens either.

And I'm not saying Vines is in Laver's league, in either peak performance or achievements. But you're creating a pretty obvious double standard when you laud one man's performance in pro majors and completely dismiss the other's.

Vines was the best player in the World for about 5 years between Tilden and Budge. His serve and forehand were major weapons, and, his forehand was considered by many to be the greatest ever.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Carsomyr

Gonzales, Hoad, etc. weren't exactly spring chickens either.

And I'm not saying Vines is in Laver's league, in either peak performance or achievements. But you're creating a pretty obvious double standard when you laud one man's performance in pro majors and completely dismiss the other's.

Vines's valuation by kiki is one of his few errors...

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Vines's consideration by kiki is one of his few errors...

In fact, I consider his marketing agent to be one of the brightest and most effective ever.Do you have his name? The guy must have been a genious who was born 50 yrs before his time...

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

I hope you like the Little Master BH

kiki, I reealized that we had a long stretch of posts as I had with Dan Lobb and a certain poster, but our's was a bit more friendly.

I admire Rosewall's backhand. I possess his matches against Newcombe at Wimbledon (1970) and against Smith in the 1974 Wimbledon and can see some wonderful backhands there (effective and aesthetically great).

In 1986 in Austria I saw the Little Master hit three backhands ina row which all touched the opponent's baseline...

That was in a senior's match at Poertschach/Carinthia. But I once read that some people would rather watch Rosewall practicing than other stars playing in a tournament. Beauty should also be considered (as you have said already).

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

kiki, I reealized that we had a long stretch of posts as I had with Dan Lobb and a certain poster, but our's was a bit more friendly.

I admire Rosewall's backhand. I possess his matches against Newcombe at Wimbledon (1970) and against Smith in the 1974 Wimbledon and can see some wonderful backhands there (effective and aesthetically great).

In 1986 in Austria I saw the Little Master hit three backhands ina row which all touched the opponent's baseline...

One thing I remember is that, after watching a series of those BH, so perfect that Rosewall himself seemed bored, I decided for a game or two close eyes and just listen to the water like sound of his Bh.That was like the finest vibraphone set...listening to the sound, you just realized that a perfectly tamed shot had been produced and delivered.So good was that shot, that it was not only a delight to watch it but also to actually listening to it.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

One thing I remember is that, after watching a series of those BH, so perfect that Rosewall himself seemed bored, I decided for a game or two close eyes and just listen to the water like sound of his Bh.That was like the finest vibraphone set...listening to the sound, you just realized that a perfectly tamed shot had been produced and delivered.So good was that shot, that it was not only a delight to watch it but also to actually listening to it.

Great impression.

And I was astonished about the ease Muscles played sharp backhand shots. It was in 1992 near Hamburg when I watched Rosewall practicing and when I stood only 2 or 3 meters away from him...

I guess there are some reasons why I admire that player.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by kiki

One thing I remember is that, after watching a series of those BH, so perfect that Rosewall himself seemed bored, I decided for a game or two close eyes and just listen to the water like sound of his Bh.That was like the finest vibraphone set...listening to the sound, you just realized that a perfectly tamed shot had been produced and delivered.So good was that shot, that it was not only a delight to watch it but also to actually listening to it.

Kiki,

I disagree with you sometimes but when you write something like that, well I'd be almost willing to believe Kodes was better than Vines. Notice I wrote almost.

Super post and so true.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by pc1

Kiki,

I disagree with you sometimes but when you write something like that, well I'd be almost willing to believe Kodes was better than Vines. Notice I wrote almost.

Super post and so true.

And because kiki being mad for Rosewall I should include Kodes into my top ten, maybe between Gonzalez and Tilden

[kiki]

Originally Posted by pc1

Kiki,

I disagree with you sometimes but when you write something like that, well I'd be almost willing to believe Kodes was better than Vines. Notice I wrote almost.

Super post and so true.

Thanks, we all agree on disagreeing from time to time tough most of us share the same vision and pretty similar background.

I honestly think that, in terms of talent, Vines was a better player than Kodes.But look at it the other way; Kodes achieved a lot being less talented than the all time greats and that deserves IMO, great respect and admiration.

Only Laver and Rosewall had a better return, specially off the BH side until Connors arrived.Kodes return could even weak down a gunner like Newcombe or Smith, both terrific servers.probably, only Laver and Rosewall could be, either flashier or steadier, but he got to their level, almost.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

And because kiki being mad for Rosewall I should include Kodes into my top ten, maybe between Gonzalez and Tilden

Oh, don´t do that or i´ll turn red.

Kodes is somewehere near the top 35 or so, yet he was a main charcater in one of the greatest eras ever, the early 70´s.IMO, in termos of qquality, variety, characters and competitive guts, the early 70´s are, along the late 50´s and early to middle 80´s, the best era ever for male tennis.early to middle 90´s could be very close to that, and that makes 4 slots of time when tennis was clearly superior to other slots of times.My opinion, of course.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

Thanks, we all agree on disagreeing from time to time tough most of us share the same vision and pretty similar background.

I honestly think that, in terms of talent, Vines was a better player than Kodes.But look at it the other way; Kodes achieved a lot being less talented than the all time greats and that deserves IMO, great respect and admiration.

Only Laver and Rosewall had a better return, specially off the BH side until Connors arrived.Kodes return could even weak down a gunner like Newcombe or Smith, both terrific servers.probably, only Laver and Rosewall could be, either flashier or steadier, but he got to their level, almost.

I agree that we all disagree from time to time or in special cases. But I plead for a certain agreement of all posters and experts on a few basics: For instance that the top players of today are not stronger than those of earlier decades. Or that Laver, Rosewall, Tilden, Gonzalez, Borg, Sampras and Federer should be ranked among the top ten. Or that Emerson is overrated and not among the top 15. Or that K. Kozeluh, Nüsslein, Kovacs, Segura, Gimeno and Roche are underrated....

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

Oh, don´t do that or i´ll turn red.

Kodes is somewehere near the top 35 or so, yet he was a main charcater in one of the greatest eras ever, the early 70´s.IMO, in termos of qquality, variety, characters and competitive guts, the early 70´s are, along the late 50´s and early to middle 80´s, the best era ever for male tennis.early to middle 90´s could be very close to that, and that makes 4 slots of time when tennis was clearly superior to other slots of times.My opinion, of course.

I agree regarding the periods of strongest competition.

I would go with Dan Lobb (By the way, I miss him a bit) that the late 1950s were the toughest time because there was that fantastic group of top pros who played each other for about five years and were ranked 1 to 6 in every of those years.You know: Gonzalez, Hoad, Rosewall, Sedgman, Segura and Trabert.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

I agree that we all disagree from time to time or in special cases. But I plead for a certain agreement of all posters and experts on a few basics: For instance that the top players of today are not stronger than those of earlier decades. Or that Laver, Rosewall, Tilden, Gonzalez, Borg, Sampras and Federer should be ranked among the top ten. Or that Emerson is overrated and not among the top 15. Or that K. Kozeluh, Nüsslein, Kovacs, Segura, Gimeno and Roche are underrated....

I agree mostly although, if we talk about underrated players, all those you mention are better rated in TT than guys like Kodes, or Trabert, or Seixas, or Drobny, or Borotra to name a few off my hat.At least, this is my impression.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

And because kiki being mad for Rosewall I should include Kodes into my top ten, maybe between Gonzalez and Tilden

It's revealing to see that your assessments are for sale, B1. Or, parhaps more like "top ten trading cards."

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

I agree regarding the periods of strongest competition.

I would go with Dan Lobb (By the way, I miss him a bit) that the late 1950s were the toughest time because there was that fantastic group of top pros who played each other for about five years and were ranked 1 to 6 in every of those years.You know: Gonzalez, Hoad, Rosewall, Sedgman, Segura and Trabert.

Yes, I sometimes posted that, in my humble opinion, 4 slots of time stand up.

The middle to late 50´s ( and I will mix up pros and maateurs because we talk about the global situation of the sport) were great: Laver reached major finals in 1959, Olmedo was superb, Emerson and Fraser, as well as Cooper and Anderson started to stablish themselves as top stuff and, of course, kramer,Trabert,Hoad,Rosewall,Gonzales and Sedgman is probably the best group of six players assembled at the same time.

early 70´s were just as great, I consider the first great open era starting in 1968 and ending around 1974, when the game changed a lot.During those 5-6 years, Laver,Rosewall,Nastase,Ashe,Newk,Gimeno,Kodes,Roch e,Smith and Okker ( with still competitive Emmo,Stolle,Drysdale,ralston,Lutz,Richey,Gorman,Pi lic,franulovic,Metrevali,taylor,Gorman right behind) will make what is, in my opinion, the greatest ever top ten.Better than late 50´s because the deepth was a bit better at the top 10 or top 15 ( which is what defines true competitive eras)

Of course, the whole 80´s were a feast with Borg,Connors,Lendl,Mac and later Wilander,Becker,edberg ( and Kriek,Cash,Noah,Gomez,Mecir and for a while Vilas;Gerulaitis,Tanner,Pecci,Mayer and Clerc) going at each other.if Borg had played until 29 or 30, I just can imagine a 1985 year with Bjorn,Jimmy,John,Ivan,Matts,Boris and Stefan that would have been unbelievable and with a far stronger media and financial support than the group of the late 50´s and even early 70´s.

Finally, the first 5-6 years of the 90´s were also huge, with Sampras,Agassi,becker,Edberg,Ivanisevic,Bruguera,R after,Courier,Chang,Stich and Richard Krajicek well supported by guys like Kafelnikov,young Moya and young Rios,Korda,Rusedski,Muster,Forget,Medvedev,Todd Martin and wayne Ferreira among some others.This group compares to any other formed.

So, the top 6 is late 50´s, the top 7 is the 80´s, the top 10 is early 70´s and early 90´s.Sorry for the long explanation, but it is the way I always will look at this sport unless things will change in the next decades.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by kiki

Thanks, we all agree on disagreeing from time to time tough most of us share the same vision and pretty similar background.

I honestly think that, in terms of talent, Vines was a better player than Kodes.But look at it the other way; Kodes achieved a lot being less talented than the all time greats and that deserves IMO, great respect and admiration.

Only Laver and Rosewall had a better return, specially off the BH side until Connors arrived.Kodes return could even weak down a gunner like Newcombe or Smith, both terrific servers.probably, only Laver and Rosewall could be, either flashier or steadier, but he got to their level, almost.

Emerson had a better backhand return that Kodes, and was better in every other aspect of the game as well. Accord Ashe, Roche and Nastase.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

It's revealing to see that your assessments are for sale, B1. Or, parhaps more like "top ten trading cards."

I'm astonished that you even lack a sense for humour...