"So you only play 5.0?"

[BridgetJones]

Originally Posted by Timbo's hopeless slice

A 'Top Junior' isn't going to be messing about with HS tennis, Lee!

Maybe I'm spoilt since our top juniors are top 50 ITF kids, I don't think the number 1 player from Peru is at quite that level...

I assume you didnt mean that the way it sounded. Peruanos do play tennis and some play quite well. There are even some in the top 50 ITF!

[BridgetJones]

Originally Posted by LeeD

I'm with Suresh.
No way a junior who might be a Number 1 singles in high school can go far in A/Open events. He might beat guys who don't belong there, like 4.5's who want to see how their game matches up, and they might beat another junior, but any experience adult would kill them 2's foreever.
Adult 5.0 is playing against experienced (more than 5 years of competitive tennis) full grown MEN, who can place serves, are not afraid of hitting head high topspin shots, and can volley and overhead better than anyone in juniors.
I played the #2 Junior in Peru, a then 16 year old, 5'11" and 170lbs. He was visiting CalBerkeley for a look at the campus. He crushed me, 2 and 2, but I was never better than 4.5, was over 55 at the time, and I could easily have taken more games if my ad court play was better. We played at least 6 doubles matches in the previous week, very evenly played.
I played the #4 singles player from DomincanCollege when I was maybe 45, almost 20 years after I made 4.5. He WON the junior Wimbledon the year before, and the match setup was via the coach, who wanted him to face a real lefty serve (he was lefty also). Very close match, him winning straight sets.
A full grown man who has tennis experience is not intimidated by little kids (under 17), no matter how hard they hit topspin groundies. Their serves and volleys are lacking, they don't position well at net, don't like to face skidding slices, and usually don't take practice matches seriously.
OTOH, now that I'm 63, I'm sure any top junior can hand me double bagels.

When did you play the Peruvian guy, I think that might have been the brother of a friend of mine!

[LeeD]

If you want the exact year, I"m stumped.
Musta been '06 possibly '05. Really nice kid, he'd come down with his parents who spoke only Spanish, play a few sets of doubles with the 4-4.5 crowd, usually win 70% of the points, and maintain an enthusiastic demeanor the whole time.
I got stuck playing him because that day, only 2 4.0's showed up, the rest old farts, so rather than play with a old fart, we played singles, excluding the other 4.0, who had very little pace or serves, but a great retriever.

[Fuji]

Haha you guys are so interesting.

Just wanted to let you know, I watched a University woman player hit this afternoon, she serves at the same speed I do, with way better placement. She's easily 5.5+ as that's the standard requirement for the team. Just letting you guys know, I doubt I could take a game off her, let alone a set.

-Fuji

[0d1n]

Originally Posted by beernutz

The flaw in your argument is that you are trying to take an outsiders look at the characteristics of the NTRP system and the 4.5 level in particular and extrapolate them to actual results of a hypothetical match with a top 1000 female. This is akin to being a restaurant reviewer who only looks at a menu and the chef's recipes and resume then uses that data to rate his meal.

The biggest flaw in your argument is that the NTRP system is far from perfect. I can guarantee you that there are current legitimate computer-rated 4.5s in the US who possess 5.0 level skills and are possibly even better than that. So now the argument becomes could a man with 5.0 level skills (or even better) take multiple games or sets from a top 1000 woman? I think it would be easy to find a male in this category who regularly hits monster serves and was a decent returner and match them up with a top 1000 woman who had weak serve and return skills and I don't think the results are predictable at all. Cherry pick a six foot six inch male with a booming serve and match them against the shortest and weakest returning WTA top 1000 female and you are still guaranteeing the female wins with bagels and breadsticks? I'll take a piece of that action any day and twice on Sundays.

Look man, I'm not talking about people who "trick the system" but even so...even 5.0's ...they're still not close to pro women. They would get more games than 4.5's but still no sets.
Also...if there are 5.5 + players playing as computer rated 4.5's ... then everybody involved with NTRP rating and/or organizing tournaments around there is an idiot, because the difference between 5.5+ and 4.5 is a quantum leap, and anybody worth their salt when it comes to tennis knowledge would need exactly 15 minutes to tell that one of those guys doesn't belong in 4.5 leagues.
Anyway I'm not going to argue with cherry picking a sandbagger with huge serves and big returns and pick the weakest possible server on the wta...what would the result be...bla bla...but I will say this :
If you take the top 500 wta and the top 500 ranked 4.5's in the USA, and match them either 1 with 1, 2 with 2...etc OR randomly...no 4.5 will get more than 2 games per set. None...no way...no how.
Also ... LeeD, your history lessons are boring. We are talking about the present and you keep bringing up your lefty serve from 1965. Let me tell you this...I've seen your video serve...and I believe you it was much bigger 30 years ago. However...IF you actually trained with pro or close to pro women (and that's a big if), the restrictions imposed upon you as a hitting partner have nothing to do with "fear of getting beat" and have everything to do with whatever the coach felt the girl needed to train. That's the role of hitting partners...to train whatever the "pro" needs. Now...could we stick to this century please ???

[floridatennisdude]

Lee doesn't recognize that tennis skills and strategy exist in a post 1970s world. It's so funny to hear the comparisons he brings up. It's like he's stuck on a shroom trip from Woodstock and can't snap out of it.

[LeeD]

Problem here is that I can only go by past experience with several top level women players, while you guys can recall one or two instances of current top level women players.
Do you think the old player'd DIDN'T have strategy or tactics? Nothing has change in the women's game from then. It was always about flat with a little topspin, deep shots into baseline corners, very consistent play compared to equal rated men, weak serves, little net play (you will quote Stosur or someone like that, but they are exceptions and there are, to every rule).
IF you 4.5's can play net, hit short angled volleys, IF you 4.5's have a serve out wide to typical 2hbh backhands, IF you guys can serve into the body to move the returner BACK, then serve short wide, you'd have a much better chance to win a few games.
IF u 4.5's stay at the baseline, hit topspin hard shots, are rightie and serve top/slice serves all day, YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO WIN ANY GAMES, against a woman rated one who unit ahead of you.
As for whether or not I have actually been practice partners? Well, imagine this. I was 27 by the time I got decent at tennis, drove a BuickSkylark 442, surfed for over 10 years, skied for over 4, what do you think my chances were then?
Think for youself.

[floridatennisdude]

^^^I love so much about this post. Classic!

[LeeD]

Yeah, and you don't seem to remember that a person needs to learn from history, because if you don't, you are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Even today, a rising 4.5 with some strokes, lefty, net player, can still give problems to 5.5 women. They cannot beat 6.5 women, for sure.

[Rafa4Ever]

lol, you guys have no idea. Any top junior or even a decent one would decimate a 5.0. We go through so much training and are sick of hearing old men talk about how they are a 5.0 and must be super good. If you are actually good you don't need some number to say so. Go and play matches at an open level and see how you do. I don't care how you were 30 years ago, guess what?, you're old now and you CANT do that anymore so it doesn't matter. You are probably putting whatever memory you had of yourself on steroids as well. So please when it comes to Junior players and how we talk about the adult 5.0 super gods please just don't event comment.

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by Rafa4Ever

lol, you guys have no idea. Any top junior or even a decent one would decimate a 5.0. We go through so much training and are sick of hearing old men talk about how they are a 5.0 and must be super good. If you are actually good you don't need some number to say so. Go and play matches at an open level and see how you do. I don't care how you were 30 years ago, guess what?, you're old now and you CANT do that anymore so it doesn't matter. You are probably putting whatever memory you had of yourself on steroids as well. So please when it comes to Junior players and how we talk about the adult 5.0 super gods please just don't event comment.

Funny, quite a few of the juniors I hit with have the same mentality! (Hence the point of this thread!)

-Fuji

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by Rafa4Ever

lol, you guys have no idea. Any top junior or even a decent one would decimate a 5.0. We go through so much training and are sick of hearing old men talk about how they are a 5.0 and must be super good. If you are actually good you don't need some number to say so. Go and play matches at an open level and see how you do. I don't care how you were 30 years ago, guess what?, you're old now and you CANT do that anymore so it doesn't matter. You are probably putting whatever memory you had of yourself on steroids as well. So please when it comes to Junior players and how we talk about the adult 5.0 super gods please just don't event comment.

There are also a lot of juniors who overestimate their skill and have no chance in open. You might be "top ranked" in your state but that certainly doesnt mean you will clean house in an open. Most juniors dont have the temperament to survive in the open class too. Your typical 5.0 is not going to be an "old man" either.

[Timbo's hopeless slice]

Originally Posted by Rafa4Ever

lol, you guys have no idea. Any top junior or even a decent one would decimate a 5.0. We go through so much training and are sick of hearing old men talk about how they are a 5.0 and must be super good. If you are actually good you don't need some number to say so. Go and play matches at an open level and see how you do. I don't care how you were 30 years ago, guess what?, you're old now and you CANT do that anymore so it doesn't matter. You are probably putting whatever memory you had of yourself on steroids as well. So please when it comes to Junior players and how we talk about the adult 5.0 super gods please just don't event comment.

as I believe I mentioned, most of the open tournaments I play in are chock full of 'top juniors'

It is a different level for them after Junior tournaments, though, and they seldom make it past the second or third rounds.

Fortunately, most of them are expecting this, although we do get the odd superhero who thinks he is going to dominate all the 'old men' on account of all the 'training' he does.

(because an adult open player NEVER practices or anything, obviously, what with being old and stuff.)

[corbind]

Originally Posted by Timbo's hopeless slice

(because an adult open player NEVER practices or anything, obviously, what with being old and stuff.)

Rafa's post was harsh. Your humor helped.

(floridatennis dude...do you dislike LeeD or just not happy with his talk in this thread? I like reading both of your typical posts)

[SoBad]

Originally Posted by 0d1n

Someone like Kafelnikov, who's only a double major champion, and would have had a couple more French Open's if he wouldn't have run into inspired all time clay great Kuerten.

Kafelnikov did better against prime Kuerten than Fender against the hip-busted Kuerten.

[LeeD]

I love post 90. So should you all.
There ya go, we're doomed to repeat the mistakes of our elders....

[beernutz]

Originally Posted by Rafa4Ever

lol, you guys have no idea. Any top junior or even a decent one would decimate a 5.0. We go through so much training and are sick of hearing old men talk about how they are a 5.0 and must be super good. If you are actually good you don't need some number to say so. Go and play matches at an open level and see how you do. I don't care how you were 30 years ago, guess what?, you're old now and you CANT do that anymore so it doesn't matter. You are probably putting whatever memory you had of yourself on steroids as well. So please when it comes to Junior players and how we talk about the adult 5.0 super gods please just don't event comment.

[LeeD]

We all love post 90, don't we?
Glass houses, pointing fingers, the whole shebang.

[floridatennisdude]

Originally Posted by LeeD

We all love post 90, don't we?
Glass houses, pointing fingers, the whole shebang.

Oversized racquets, polyester strings, strength training, etc. Our point is the game has evolved so dramatically since the 70s that there is a reason the game no longer looks like in the days of Borg and McEnroe.

It's easy to say "serve and volley" against a D1 female. Pretty tough to do in 2012 when the ball will be coming back as hard as it was served with more spin. That's where your whole theory breaks down and renders your strategies useless.

[SoBad]

Back when I was in a barber shop quartet with JelenaSukova in Skokie, IL...