Clay Court GOAT

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Vilas is a long way in front of Djokovic on clay.

Lets see if he still is when their careers are over. I somewhat doubt it. Being a Muster fan I know you are perfectly happy to overcredit many extra rinkey dink clay titles, although as I said Muster atleast dominated the whole clay scene in 95 and 96, something Vilas never did.

If Djokvoic wins a French, reaches another 2 French Open finals, and wins atleast another 2 Masters on clay, which is probably atleast 70% likely to happen by the end of his career, will many people rank Vilas over him? The obvious answer is no, and those who do will only have Vilas's record at tiny clay events most couldnt be bothered to play as their argument, and almost all will be partial fans of Vilas.

As I said I wouldnt even be surprised if Djokovic ends up surpassing Federer on clay (although not nearly as sure on this as I am relatively sure of him passing Vilas's clay status eventually), and Federer is obviously above Vilas on clay.

As far as level of play Djokovic at his best is already easily better than Vilas "1 to 3 games per set vs Borg"

[Mustard]

Vilas dominated 1977, won both majors on clay and had a 53-match winning streak on the surface.

[NadalAgassi]

Was Vilas the undisputed best clay courter in the World in peoples eyes in 1977 the way Muster was in 1995 and 1996? NO. Nearly everyone still considered Borg the best, and Vilas could not beat Borg head to head anywhere even that year, not even his beloved clay, in fact both times they met on clay this year he was drubbed, winning 17 games total in 6 sets of clay court tennis between the two. As a Muster fan you are in fact insulting him to suggest Muster those two years was anything like Vilas in 77. Muster those two years was the man on clay. Vilas in 77 was the man on clay only when Borg didnt play.

I guess you could give Vilas top honor on green clay that year, especialy as Borg was in the draw at the U.S Open even though he did not finish a match with injury. However red clay was still Borg by a landslide, and everyone knew it. By your logic Sue Barker and Virginia Ruzica were the top clay courters in the World the years the won the French during this period, not Chris Evert (who skipped every French from 76-78 due to money making commitments which often took priority over the French around this time). It would be one thing if Vilas won when he met Borg on clay, or even if they hadnt played at all on clay this year, but that is not the case.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Was Vilas the undisputed best clay courter in the World in peoples eyes in 1977 the way Muster was in 1995 and 1996? NO. Nearly everyone still considered Borg the best, and Vilas could not beat Borg head to head anywhere even that year, not even his beloved clay, in fact both times they met on clay this year he was drubbed, winning 17 games total in 6 sets of clay court tennis between the two. As a Muster fan you are in fact insulting him to suggest Muster those two years was anything like Vilas in 77. Muster those two years was the man on clay. Vilas in 77 was the man on clay only when Borg didnt play.

Borg chose not to play the 1977 French Open, opting to join the Cleveland Nets for 1977 World TeamTennis. Borg played the 1977 US Open, and had to retire against Stockton in the Round of 16. Vilas won both tournaments.

Muster in 1995, won all the big clay-court titles except Hamburg (which he didn't play), and won 11 titles on the surface. In 1996, he won 7 titles on clay, which included a retaining of all his pre-French Open titles from 1995.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Borg chose not to play the 1977 French Open, opting to join the Cleveland Nets for 1977 World TeamTennis. Borg played the 1977 US Open, and had to retire against Stockton in the Round of 16. Vilas won both tournaments.

Muster in 1995, won all the big clay-court titles except Hamburg (which he didn't play), and won 11 titles on the surface. In 1996, he won 7 titles on clay, which included a retaining of all his pre-French Open titles from 1995.

What is your point. Borg skipped the French which Vilas won, both Borg and Vilas were dominant on clay where they each played that year, but the two times they played Borg spanked Vilas like always, and Muster on clay in 95 and 96 was hands down the best clay courter in the World which Vilas never was. That was exactly what I already said. So your post is for what reason exactly?

Like I said you could give green clay to Vilas in 1977, but red clay there is no argument for Vilas being better than Borg except his French Open title with Borg not playing, but by that logic Barker and Ruzica were the best red clay players in the World in the years they won the French, not Chris Evert. Are you willing to make that claim as well, LOL!

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

What is your point.

I would have thought that was obvious. You have to be in the tournament in order to have any chance of winning it. Borg chose WTT over the French Open in 1977. Vilas chose to play the 1977 French Open and won it in dominant fashion. Along with Vilas, the 1977 French Open had players like Panatta, Nastase, Ramirez, Solomon, Gottfried, Kodes and Dibbs in the draw, so trying to discredit Vilas' win is poor form. Borg knew the consequences of playing WTT, and that meant a banning from that year's French Open, as established by Connors' failed legal action against the French Tennis Federation in 1974.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Borg skipped the French which Vilas won, both Borg and Vilas were dominant on clay where they each played that year, but the two times they played Borg spanked Vilas like always, and Muster on clay in 95 and 96 was hands down the best clay courter in the World which Vilas never was. That was exactly what I already said. So your post is for what reason exactly?

Vilas' dominant form in 1977 was in the second half of the year, and he didn't meet Borg then. For most of their careers, Borg beat Vilas by one-sided scores, but it always felt closer than the scorelines suggest and you just have to watch the 1978 French Open final to see this. Borg beat Vilas like he did because he was a little bit better in all the strong aspects of Vilas' game. But with Vilas in his peak form in the second half of 1977, who knows what would have happened had he faced Borg then? The point is, Vilas, through his sheer activity that year, and winning both clay-court majors, was the best player.

[Gizo]

I don't think Djokovic belongs in the same conversation as players like Vilas on clay.

And how many good quality victories does Djokovic actually have at RG during his career. A 30 year old Federer that played horrendously this year, Del Potro last year maybe and Gonzalez in 2006. It's not like he has particularly difficult draws there over the years.

I think that Djokovic has been a bigger beneficiary of surface homogenisation and hard court tennis being the norm on every surface (the make-up of the current tour is basically completely dominated by hard courters), than either Federer or Nadal.

[TMF]

1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Lendl
4. Wilander
5. Guga
6. Vilas
7. Federer
8. Laver
9. Muster
10. Rosewall/Burguera

[timnz]

Originally Posted by TMF

1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Lendl
4. Wilander
5. Guga
6. Vilas
7. Federer
8. Laver
9. Muster
10. Rosewall/Burguera

No Wilding or Cochet?

[TMF]

Originally Posted by timnz

No Wilding or Cochet?

Aren't they like 100 years ago? I don't know if we should go back that far. In those days they were wearing pant and long sleeves shirt.

[jean pierre]

Titles won on clay :

Vilas : 45
Djokovic : 7

Grand Slams on clay :

Vilas : 2
Djokovic : 0

End of the match.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by TMF

1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Lendl
4. Wilander
5. Guga
6. Vilas
7. Federer
8. Laver
9. Muster
10. Rosewall/Burguera

TMF,

Even though I am an Austrian, I cannot understand that you put Muster ahead of Rosewall on clay.

Most experts (even non-admirers of Muscles) rate Rosewall very high regarding clay, f.i. ahead of Laver.

I guess you know that Rosewall won 6 big titles at Roland Garros. Please consider this case once more.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by TMF

Aren't they like 100 years ago? I don't know if we should go back that far. In those days they were wearing pant and long sleeves shirt.

If they were wearing Speedo's would it make them better than today's pros?

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by jean pierre

Titles won on clay :

Vilas : 45
Djokovic : 7

Grand Slams on clay :

Vilas : 2
Djokovic : 0

End of the match.

I don't think so. IMO, Djokovic would have a winning record against Vilas on clay.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

TMF,

Even though I am an Austrian, I cannot understand that you put Muster ahead of Rosewall on clay.

Most experts (even non-admirers of Muscles) rate Rosewall very high regarding clay, f.i. ahead of Laver.

I guess you know that Rosewall won 6 big titles at Roland Garros. Please consider this case once more.

Rosewall had a great record on clay. But, he played in an era when most of the top pros still S&V'd on clay, some on first and second serves. I don't think it's difficult to conclude that Rosewall's style of play, as effective as it was against attacking players of the 50's and 60's on clay, would be as successful against the grinders of the 70's through the present.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by TMF

1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Lendl
4. Wilander
5. Guga
6. Vilas
7. Federer
8. Laver
9. Muster
10. Rosewall/Burguera

Laver and Rosewall as well as Kodes,Emmo and Santana double Fed at Paris, no chance he is top 10 and almost the same for Vilas

[kiki]

Originally Posted by TMF

Aren't they like 100 years ago? I don't know if we should go back that far. In those days they were wearing pant and long sleeves shirt.

and playing awful tennis while not owned by its main rival

[kiki]

Originally Posted by jean pierre

Titles won on clay :

Vilas : 45
Djokovic : 7

Grand Slams on clay :

Vilas : 2
Djokovic : 0

End of the match.

Djoko on clay is not an option he lines up with Stich or Edberg at most on clay

[TMF]

Originally Posted by kiki

Laver and Rosewall as well as Kodes,Emmo and Santana double Fed at Paris, no chance he is top 10 and almost the same for Vilas

I've Fed at #7 and some people have him higher or lower. You always get ticked off when someone is put a player ahead of Laver and Rosewall. They are good players too but that doesn't mean they have to be at the top in every categories. Now try to be open minded.

[TMF]

Originally Posted by kiki

and playing awful tennis while not owned by its main rival

Never in the history of tennis where you have a pair of most dominant players(Federer/Nadal) ever to play the game. Borg/Connors, Pete/Andre or Laver/Rosewall were good too but they fall short.