Heavy Topspin is Overrated.

[Power Player]

This is a silly post. Much too black and white. I hit through the ball but still hit with a lot of top. So many ways to hit the ball.

So you saw a guy hit with too much spin..it happens. The guy can fix that and hit a little more clean.

Nothing is really overrated in tennis. There are so many variables that to pinpoint just one aspect of the game is small minded.

[NLBwell]

Originally Posted by 5263

I don't know anyone who suggests to do that...do you?

True, but quite a few players - especially juniors - try to do it anyway.

[KenC]

Just to be perfectly clear, the point of the topic is not "Is topspin relevant?" I think we all know the answer to that. The more the merrier. But is there a certain point where additional topspin really doesn't do any good and comes at the expense of better options, like pace?

The point is, there are many players out there who have decided to base their entire game on topspin, and use topspin as their weapon of choice. Did they make a mistake? Has the focus on producing killer topspin prevented them from fully developing a better weapon or weapons?

I think we all know where this current fascination with killer topspin originates. Indeed, Nadal had great success with killer topspin, especially on clay. Evidently there are many players who are trying to replicate his technique and strategy but not having overwhelming success with it. In fact, I see it having better success at the lower intermediate levels than I do at the upper intermediate levels. At the 5.0+ equivalent levels here it seems that the majority of players who face a killer topspin baseliner have already seen it enough to deal with it effectively.

[sansaephanh]

i poop on this thread by saying that I really like garlic alfredo.

[Metalica]

My answer to OP's question is: Yes it is a bad thing, just like any other aspect of the game. It's easy to be fascinated with topspin. Same with, I think watching a well struck heavy topspin ball on TV can be very satisfying and I understand how trying to recreate those shots can compromise your technique. Still I believe at the club level, trying to hit too hard (and flat) is a bigger problem. Hitting poorly struck topspin balls at least allows you to contruct the point.

[The Meat]

Heavy Topspin comes in two flavors.

Useless topspin shot= something that is used to bounce high to give people who can't handle high balls that well a hard time.

Good topspin shot= used to make the ball land closer to the lines and either drag the opponent out wide or used to keep the ball in with a harder hit shot.

[5263]

Originally Posted by The Meat

Good topspin shot= used to make the ball land closer to the lines and either drag the opponent out wide or used to keep the ball in with a harder hit shot.

Pretty much a losing strategy to try and hit closer to the lines imo.
Good topspin is used to keep strong shots away from the lines.

[Power Player]

Originally Posted by KenC

Just to be perfectly clear, the point of the topic is not "Is topspin relevant?" I think we all know the answer to that. The more the merrier. But is there a certain point where additional topspin really doesn't do any good and comes at the expense of better options, like pace?

The point is, there are many players out there who have decided to base their entire game on topspin, and use topspin as their weapon of choice. Did they make a mistake? Has the focus on producing killer topspin prevented them from fully developing a better weapon or weapons?

I think we all know where this current fascination with killer topspin originates. Indeed, Nadal had great success with killer topspin, especially on clay. Evidently there are many players who are trying to replicate his technique and strategy but not having overwhelming success with it. In fact, I see it having better success at the lower intermediate levels than I do at the upper intermediate levels. At the 5.0+ equivalent levels here it seems that the majority of players who face a killer topspin baseliner have already seen it enough to deal with it effectively.

Ok I get what you are saying now.

My perspective : I was hitting with too much spin a year or two ago. Western grip, coming over the ball too much, not hitting clean. It actually can still win you a lot of matches, but IMO is not proper technique.

I went to semi western more often (still slide to W for certain shots), focused on hitting the ball square and then letting my natural stroke add all the topspin.

So I think what you are talking about is poor technique at an advanced level. A lot of guys can play their whole lives with that kind of top and win under 4.5. But the best ball is the heavy one that is hit clean and powerful and still has heavy top on it. the only way I found that shot was to go to the semi western grip and spend some time grooving it.

[r2473]

^^ Guess I basically just said what PP said in the above post. I am the guy with poor technique winning matches at 4.5 and below, but will probably never be able to beat "good players".

Originally Posted by KenC

The point is, there are many players out there who have decided to base their entire game on topspin, and use topspin as their weapon of choice. Did they make a mistake? Has the focus on producing killer topspin prevented them from fully developing a better weapon or weapons?

This is my style of play. I hit with a RIDICULOUS amout of topspin. Long, loopy shots that keep my opponent glued a few feet behind the baseline.

My gameplan is not to hit winners. I'm really a "secret pusher". My opponent can track down most every shot I hit. I just bank on the fact 1) I'm fitter than he is; 2) He will get impatient as he gets physically and mentally tired of running down my looping topsin (and hitting so many balls at shoulder height or higher).

But I do get into trouble when I face guys that know how to deal with this. Then I have to cut down on the spin and hit through the ball more. I make more errors and I normally lose.

As an aside, I'm 215lbs. and nearly 40 years old. I love to watch guys 50lbs. lighter and nearly half my age get tired

[5263]

Originally Posted by KenC

The point is, there are many players out there who have decided to base their entire game on topspin, and use topspin as their weapon of choice. Did they make a mistake? Has the focus on producing killer topspin prevented them from fully developing a better weapon or weapons? .

Yes, focusing on just having great TS is a mistake, but likely no more and actually
likely less than any other 1 single item of focus. If you can't focus on but one
item, TS might be the best. The issue here imo, is you can't just focus on one
thing, but if you were that limited...is there something better than TS??

[Power Player]

Originally Posted by r2473

^^ Guess I basically just said what PP said in the above post. I am the guy with poor technique winning matches at 4.5 and below, but will probably never be able to beat "good players".



This is my style of play. I hit with a RIDICULOUS amout of topspin.

My gameplan is not to hit winners. I'm really a "secret pusher". My opponent can track down most every shot I hit. I just bank on the fact 1) I'm fitter than he is; 2) He will get impatient as he gets physically and mentally tired of running down my looping topsin (and hitting so many balls at shoulder height or higher).

But I do get into trouble when I face guys that know how to deal with this. Then I have to cut down on the spin and hit through the ball more. I make more errors and I normally lose.

As an aside, I'm 215lbs. and nearly 40 years old. I love to watch guys 50lbs. lighter and nearly half my age get tired

I played a guy like this last night..pretty fit, but he is a slicer. what I did was hit heavy arcing topspin to one corner and used the topspin to place it as precisely as possible. He would scramble over and return it, and then I would just hit the same exact shot to the opposite corner. It was hilarious seeing these arcing moonball shots hitting for clean winners.

I found that I only try to hit hard and through people if i have to now. against guys that take your pace away there is no need to hit that hard, so what you are doing simply works. The trick is to be able to hit through the ball as well since you can not play the low pace style against big hitters.

[r2473]

^^ I do the same thing to this "slicing pusher" guy I play. He gets a lot of balls back and keeps them low. So I just slice until he give me something I can hit with heavy spin. Then I just keep it up until the error or easy ball comes.

What you say about heavy hitters is for sure true. Guys that can really hit through the ball just murder my looping topspin. My plan against these guys is to try to make them work as hard as possible and hope they get tired enough to be a little lazy with their footwork and strokes later in the match, so they start making errors. These guys I have to try and physically and mentally breakdown. I can't beat them going toe-to-toe.

The other guy that kills me is the guy that can effectively come to net. I see this guy very rarely these days, but when I do, I pretty much know I'm toast.

I can hit through the ball OK actually, but that is something like Plan D for me. I can hit through the ball to put an easy ball away or to put some pressure on my opponent, but I know I will make an error normally within 5 strokes of hitting this way.

I also have the luxury of having a pretty effective first serve and a fairly bullet proof second serve (I rarely double fault). So I normally get 1 or 2 "free" points on my serve. This makes my job so much easier (and puts a lot of pressure on my opponent).

[Power Player]

Hitting hard and through the ball had been my plan A for too long. It is just not needed against a lot of players like you are saying.

Topspin looping is great against lower level guys who you know you should beat, but if you go out there and hold down the power button you usually lose. In that case, heavy spin pushing them back can be devastating.

Learned a lot playing my friend who can crush the ball for winners but will loop the heck out of the ball and just move it around deep in the court. If you can hit those balls deep, they are very hard to attack. I can return them deep and set up winners now but it is a very patient style of play. Heavy loops allow you to recover and prep on time, and that is something that is not valued enough in rec tennis.

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Originally Posted by kimbahpnam

tell Nadal that.....

If Nadal gets stomped, it's usually by a guy who hits on the flatter side of things. Most of his upsets are caused by players who hit relatively flat on the tour. So if we told Nadal that, he would confirm the OP's observation for people who have the timing to pull this off consistently.

Originally Posted by KenC

My question is "What is the point of full western grips and overworked strokes, especially on the FH, if they don't do so much damage?" At worst, they create junk balls because the technique is too demanding, and at best they produce a ball that jumps off the bounce and bounces higher than normal. But, those ball get sent back every time.

What I am seeing at the NTRP equivalent of 5.0+ here is way too many people who try to create a lot of spin with their western FHs and crazy looking strokes, but are neutralized by heavy hitters who use a normal amount of topspin. And this is on clay. On cement the advantages of killer topspin are seriously diminished.

Generally there are 3 basic matchups. Defensive vs aggressive, aggressive vs aggressive, defensive vs defensive. This doesn't mean "this guy is pushing and that guy is bashing", it means "this guy is looking more to get balls into play and the other guy is looking to force the point open". Aggressive vs Aggressive would basically be Safin vs Agassi, Federer has popped in all but the final scenario (being defensive vs Nadal's aggression to his backhand, aggressive vs Nadal's defensive, or aggressive vs Nadal's aggressive).

More often than not, the topspin player will be playing the more defensive role in a majority of the shots for a majority of the points compared to a flatter hitter. However, it is almost always on the flatter hitter to really decide how the match will be played. If he REALLY wants to be aggressive, he has to take the ball earlier and play with better timing. If he is used to this, then he inherently has an advantage. If he normally likes to play from further back, then he either comes out even or has a disadvantage depending on how he performs. If he decides to be defensive, then the spin player has the option to then either be more aggressive (by using his spin to open up more angles) or to play a similar defensive-minded strategy. This again results in the flatter hitter either being in an even or disadvantageous position because spin grants better safety and the spin hitter will be able to hit from closer to the court. If he decided to be aggressive without taking the ball on the rise, then he is in nothing short of a disadvantageous position because he is hitting from way behind the baseline, with very little to ensure his ball is deep, inside the lines, and over the net. He will eventually miss or hit short.

So from this, we can tell that in a VAST MAJORITY of scenarios, the spin hitter will be in a very strong position during rallies. However, for those flat players who CAN and WILL hit the ball early, consistently, and cleanly, the spin players are at a MASSIVE disadvantage. The ball is coming back earlier AND faster than they are used to compared to more hybrid opponents.

However, only a few (and extremely skilled or talented at that) can do that. Heavy topspin throws people off their game. For some, it's by a lot. For some, it's very little. Is it really worth it? Well, you could make an argument that for a vast majority, you come out either even or in a strong position... But for that small minority you are essentially ****ed if you ever play against them. Nadal has adapted by incorporating flatter shots in his arsenal, and it's served him well.

Strategically, for lower level players, I would say it is good... Because how many of them can really hit the ball so well? Most players who take the ball on the rise still won't hit it hard and return it with a good amount of spin. Very few below 5.0 can actually crank it consistently on the rise. Nadal has made it work because he travels around the world, has a good few months to play on clay to rack up wins, and has the body and legs to stay in points long enough to make it work.

I really don't advocate a Full Western grip (Roddick is an example of why you SHOULDN'T go full western). I advocate Eastern and Semi-Westen because they allow you to hit either flat or heavy spin while giving ample access to the other. Nadal uses Semi-Western, and Federer uses a mild Eastern. That's why these guys can hit so hard and hit with so much spin. It simply gives them a better range of shots. Full Western doesn't give you that option. Flat is stupid hard to hit with Full Western.

I would say heavy topspin is undervalued and often misused when it IS valued. The reason we're all not professional players on the tour (aside from age and fitness) is that we still have things to learn about tennis. Decisions like when to and when not to abuse heavy topspin is one of those things.

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Originally Posted by NLBwell

True, but quite a few players - especially juniors - try to do it anyway.

Because the junior mentality is usually all about winning. That's why so many fail to transition to being a pro. That's why the % of players with a 1 handed backhand on the tour is better than that in the juniors.

Originally Posted by Power Player

This is a silly post. Much too black and white. I hit through the ball but still hit with a lot of top. So many ways to hit the ball.

So you saw a guy hit with too much spin..it happens. The guy can fix that and hit a little more clean.

Nothing is really overrated in tennis. There are so many variables that to pinpoint just one aspect of the game is small minded.

We're talking about a normally good aspect of tennis taken to an extreme. Obviously, if we asked "is pace or flat shots overrated", we'd probably say yes, especially when compared to topspin, simply based on the argument that topspin is much more consistent, and you're far more likely to win points against evenly skilled opponents with consistency than the fastest visible ball you can hit (I say fastest visible ball because technically according to the rules, if you can't see it, give benefit of the doubt to the opponent, so balls hit at the speed of light will always be winners).

[Netspirit]

It also depends on the surface. On hard courts you can hit through the opponent, so pace > topspin.
On clay it is much harder, since clay eats flat balls alive, so topspin > pace.

In general: whatever makes it harder for the opponent (given the surface, equipment, opponent skills, your skills, and all other factors).

[Mick3391]

Originally Posted by KenC

Last night I watched the semifinal of a local 5.0+ tournament and there was this 14yo 5.0 phenom against an 18yo 5.5 topspin monster. The 14yo hit with a modest to normal amount of topspin just to keep the ball in while the 18yo used a full western grip with the typical overworked strokes. Every time the 18yo hit one of the massive topspin FHs the 14yo just nailed it back twice as hard. The massive topspin had no effect on a 14yo. The 14yo won 7-5, 6-3.

I've been noticing a lot of these matchups lately. It seems those who hit with more pace and just enough topspin to keep the ball in are doing more damage than those who try to hit massive topspin. Apparently, all the effort going into hitting massive topspin is robbing them of needed pace.

I know everyone is enamored with topspin, but it begs the questions: Do you really do damage to your opponent with all that topspin? Really? When was the last time a player beat you with topspin?

AMEN. Finally it's time that someone agrees with me, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the person making this post can really play.

These guys today, the so called "Modern Tennis" is no more than people with no skills using monster spin rackets just returning the ball, anyone can do that. But to win, you must PLACE SHOTS, many times slow shots are more effective than "Heavy shots", yet the amateurs on this forum don't understand this.

I will ralley a guy at the baseline with my "Small" PS 90, they just cut over and over with their Bab 100 spin rackets, it's so predictable, so simple for me to move them around, I MUST place my shots, must go back and forth, then just drop over the net, baseliners, even at the pro level have no clue what to do with that, it makes them mentally insecure, they never know if you are going long or drop it, so they have no clue where to play.

My 11 year old sons best shots are to hit with me baseline to baseline, then disquise his shot and drop it over the net, I can't get it. I'm not what I used to be, but I can't get it, a flat drop to my back hand where I can't even get to it is effective.

85-90" rackets are the best, they force you to place your shots, not just be a Andy Murray type and simply get the ball over the net.

Of course beginners will claim they play well with huge heads, but they are playing better than they actually play, shot making needs to be returned to Tennis and it will, you'll see....

[LeeD]

I see lots of shotmakers who use wisdom, placements, mixing spins, and they're using OS sized racketheads.

[r2473]

Originally Posted by Mick3391

AMEN. Finally it's time that someone agrees with me, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the person making this post can really play.

With the price of donuts, nobody would take that bet these days.

[Mick3391]

Originally Posted by LeeD

I see lots of shotmakers who use wisdom, placements, mixing spins, and they're using OS sized racketheads.

I understand, and to the naked eye all seems well.

However, take out a small head size, I have a PS 90 and a K-Factor 95, with the 90, I'm not talking about what we see in the pro's but reality, and with the 95 it's extra effort, I have to find the sweetspot to place my shots, with the 90 it's intuitive, like that dude on TW says "It's like an extention of your arm".

So yea, I was actually thinking the same thing, you see these guys with huge Babs slamming it back and forth, but if you elimate the common denomiator, it comes down to who is in better shape, that's why Rafa is in such peril, but when you are a true shot maker, you NEED a small head size so you can put your shot here and there.

I can go out tomorrow and get a Rafa Racket, put RPM blast in it, and yea, I can get more spin consitantly, but Tennis is SO MUCH MORE than topspin, it's topspin, slice, and flat shots, so Bab is doing great for now with their philosophy, but always the all-court player will come out on top, Sampras, Fed, and we'll have some other dominant player who is more than just a hussler.

Want to learn to play real tennis? Get a 75 inch head wood, then move up to a huge 90 inch head so you can place your shots AND have inherit power,

Babolot huge spin rackets are for amateurs, or those who specilize in clay