On the forehand: Early take back vs. continuous loop

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by tricky

Going along with 5263's point, it's very very important that you are "stalking" the ball or trying to find the ball with your non-hitting hand. THAT should be done as soon as possible.

More or less, when you find the ball with your non-hitting hand, you automatically initiate your unit turn. Once your hitting hand separates, you want your takeback to be ideally against the direction of your overall momentum. That gives you the smoother, more rhythmic backswing that gives you the better timing.

It's a little like throwing a football while rolling to your right. Unless I'm running at full sprint, I still want to find my target before I separate my non-throwing hand from the football. If I just separate, THEN roll out, that will end up just as a pitch or dink-and-dunk pass.

C'mon this is an example in which you just made up what you like about the term stalking. This is what 5263 said:

stalking is a turn to that side that tracks
the ball path with the 2 hands on the racket

You changed that to "non hitting hand."

Everyone has been stalking with the non-hitting hand pointed to the ball for years and years (on the FH).

5263 wants both hands on the racket, the OPPOSITE to what you are saying. It is not correct and not what the pros do.

Use of terms like stalking and finding have the advantage that people imagine the correct things (taught by most coaches and executed by the pros) and attribute that to this terminology, when in fact it is wrong.

[5263]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

Look at this video of Wawrinka. His coach talks about his early take back. Since Warinka has a high takeback on his backhand, it also has that loop appearance.
http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...?v=f97Krt-SnTM

This video has a pretty good explanation of the high takeback.
http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...?v=-6rzrad0kWw

Links didn't work on my notebook,
thanks

[Greg G]

^ change the m to www.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Greg G

^ change the m to www.

thanks!
......

[tricky]

Everyone has been stalking with the non-hitting hand pointed to the ball for years and years (on the FH).

You'd think so, but many people really try to find the ball with their racquet (i.e. playing catch with the racquet.) That leads to "early preparation", but not in a way that improves form.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by tricky

You'd think so, but many people really try to find the ball with their racquet (i.e. playing catch with the racquet.) That leads to "early preparation", but not in a way that improves form.

I have been reading "point to the ball with the left hand" for ever. If that is called stalking or finding the ball as you claim, that is fine.

Pros do keep both hands on the forehand together for a while as they are turning, but then the left hand comes off and starts pointing to the ball. That would be the stalking or finding. Otherwise it is just the turn and the only stalking is with the eye, which has been described as "keep your eye on the ball" for I don't know how many decades now.

[Off The Wall]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I have been reading "point to the ball with the left hand" for ever. If that is called stalking or finding the ball as you claim, that is fine.

Pros do keep both hands on the forehand together for a while as they are turning, but then the left hand comes off and starts pointing to the ball. That would be the stalking or finding. Otherwise it is just the turn and the only stalking is with the eye, which has been described as "keep your eye on the ball" for I don't know how many decades now.

Several months ago I suggested a definition for "stalking" as being between the unit turn/coil and racquet take-back. Some, like Ash, thought it was worthy. (That is, he thought the group had made some sort of agreement/progress toward a meaning for it.) Just a reminder.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Off The Wall

Several months ago I suggested a definition for "stalking" as being between the unit turn/coil and racquet take-back. Some, like Ash, thought it was worthy. (That is, he thought the group had made some sort of agreement/progress toward a meaning for it.) Just a reminder.

I think that is a great definition.

Not sure why a new term is needed when we already have "point to the ball" and "keep your eye on the ball."

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I think that is a great definition.

Not sure why a new term is needed when we already have "point to the ball" and "keep your eye on the ball."

We don't 'point to the ball' anymore.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

We don't 'point to the ball' anymore.

Then is it regarded as a general position in the overall direction for balance purposes?

[Cheetah]

We don't point in the general direction of the ball anymore. (maybe if you're in a neutral stance)
arm is extended parallel to baseline.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

5263 wants both hands on the racket, the OPPOSITE to what you are saying. It is not correct and not what the pros do.

Not the opposite, lol

Yes, what the pros do. Dj does it many times on this vid but one of the best where
he took abt 3 steps stalking with 2 hands on the racket and preparing for the Tk back-
you can use the space bar f/ slo mo, starting 0:36 and he stalks most of the 37th sec
for several steps and it happens fast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTUph...A08EEEFC#t=37s

call it what you want, describe it how you want, but this is a pretty good example
of what we term as stalking and is very different from traditional/classic instruction.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

We don't point in the general direction of the ball anymore. (maybe if you're in a neutral stance)
arm is extended parallel to baseline.

Yes lots of examples in neutral stance. Good catch on the stance dependency

Oudin



Roddique

http://www.flickr.com/photos/studiotsang/4460933663/



Goat








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www.flickr.com
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tennis.topbuzz.com
1.bp.blogspot.com

[5263]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

Look at this video of Wawrinka. His coach talks about his early?? take back. Since Warinka has a high takeback on his backhand, it also has that loop appearance.
http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...?v=f97Krt-SnTM

This video has a pretty good explanation of the high takeback.
http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...?v=-6rzrad0kWw
.

Very interesting links here to 2 vids where neither does the early tk back
Seems there is confusion by the poster between early and high take backs and
he seems to switch back and forth with his use of the terms.
The coach in the vid says nothing about a early tk back that I could find and
only mentions an early close of the racket.

Both of these are continuous loops after a brief stalking. Stalking looks almost
like a unit turn here where the ball comes right to them but there is an important
difference. Hunter, do you see that difference? Has nothing to do with the
high take back of this post.

[sureshs]

^^^^ The mobile links don't work on my desktop

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Yes lots of examples in neutral stance. Good catch on the stance dependency

I expect that for most of those pics they have just caught them after the hand/arm
has moved from parallel to the BL and strarted working across.
Not saying it is always the case, but several of them appear that way to me,
like the Roddick one where it is still nearly across.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

^^^^ The mobile links don't work on my desktop

earlier post explains that you switch the m for www.

[sureshs]

That doesn't work either, i.e does not point to a particular video. Too lazy to find one on the page assuming it is there.

[Cheetah]

yes to what 5263 said. nobody is pointing to the ball. if they were pointing to the ball it would be obvious and they would literally be pointing to the ball. parallel to baseline serves several purposes and if you point to the ball most of those purposes are lost.

[FrisbeeFool]

Originally Posted by 5263

Very interesting links here to 2 vids where neither does the early tk back
Seems there is confusion by the poster between early and high take backs and
he seems to switch back and forth with his use of the terms.
The coach in the vid says nothing about a early tk back that I could find and
only mentions an early close of the racket.

Both of these are continuous loops after a brief stalking. Stalking looks almost
like a unit turn here where the ball comes right to them but there is an important
difference. Hunter, do you see that difference? Has nothing to do with the
high take back of this post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f97Krt-SnTM

This link should work better. I posted the other ones from my phone.

Peter Lungren says: "Stan is closing his racket head very early" He is of course referring to Stan's take-back. What else would he be referring to? That is how Stan closes the racket face, with his take-back. Watch the video. Look how early Stan's take-back is. You'll also notice that he takes the racket head back high, and then drops it's down in line with the ball. This is what creates the loop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6rzrad0kWw
This link is only about the high takeback. If you watch the video, the players they show all have their racket back and are coiled, before the ball bounces. No counting to five here.

Early preparation with a higher takeback than more oldschool players like connors and evert. It's how everyone plays these days. With the high takeback you can drop the racket back down behind the ball and hit through it, even on higher bouncing balls.

To quote the guy in the second video: "What a high takeback is, is essentially a loop backswing."

Edit: Another thing I neglected to mention, that I think we are all in agreement on. In the takeback, there shouldn't be any extraneous motion, where the racket head is on the other side of the body, on the forehand. You should take the racket back by keeping a relaxed hitting hand and coiling your shoulders. On the forehand you want the racket head to stay on that one side of your body, so you can drop it down more or less in line with the ball. You don't want extraneous "baroque" motions that you often see juniors use which bring the racket face way around on the other side of the body on the takeback. This is what people mean when they refer to the compact take-back.