On the forehand: Early take back vs. continuous loop

[Long Face]

My understanding is: Early shoulder turn + continuous racquet head acceleration.

Thinking "pulling your hand back early" is a very bad thing, and could ruin your forehand.

It is amazing to see pros still having his/her racquet in both hands when the ball bounces. But since his/her shoulder had already fully turned, the racquet can start accelerating and still hit the ball in time.

[FrisbeeFool]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

yes to what 5263 said. nobody is pointing to the ball. if they were pointing to the ball it would be obvious and they would literally be pointing to the ball. parallel to baseline serves several purposes and if you point to the ball most of those purposes are lost.

Yeah pointing at the ball is something you saw pros doing in the Chris Evert Days. Today, most are pointing to the side fence with their off-hand during their forehand preparation. Players today coil even more than the oldschool players during their preparation on groundstrokes.

[5263]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

Peter Lungren says: "Stan is closing his racket head very early" He is of course referring to Stan's take-back. What else would he be referring to? That is how Stan closes the racket face, with his take-back. Watch the video. Look how early Stan's take-back is.

This link is only about the high takeback. If you watch the video, the players they show all have their racket back and are coiled, before the ball bounces. No counting to five here.

Early preparation with a higher takeback than more oldschool players like connors and evert. It's how everyone plays these days. With the high takeback you can drop the racket back down behind the ball and hit through it, even on higher bouncing balls.

Thanks for reposting and I really like the professional tone of your comments.
I don't mean to be argumentative, but would like to question some of the points
you made as they relate directly to the OP and what he is asking.

You say the comment about closing the racket head is on his tk back, but I just
don't see that, as it seems he really keeps it pretty open till swinging forward
during alignment for contact. Maybe you can help me see what you have here.

I don't have a problem with what you are calling early prep, but Hunter is looking
to see how this differs from the past where early prep was racket well
behind the back shoulder and racket mostly pointing to back/side fence....not
2 hands on racket directly in front of the back shoulder like Stan here. I guess
calling it early prep is fine, but confusing from a different early prep in classic
instruction pov.

It's also hard to say this prep is earlier than Evert and other old schoolers who
ran around the court at times with the racket already in full back position.
IMO Stan is a better example of continuous loop, than early prep and also don't
see why you can't have a loop with a lower tk back. It's more obvious
with a high tk back, but a lower tk back can do a small loop too, right?
thanks for your insights

[FrisbeeFool]

Originally Posted by 5263

Thanks for reposting and I really like the professional tone of your comments.
I don't mean to be argumentative, but would like to question some of the points
you made as they relate directly to the OP and what he is asking.

You say the comment about closing the racket head is on his tk back, but I just
don't see that, as it seems he really keeps it pretty open till swinging forward
during alignment for contact. Maybe you can help me see what you have here.

I don't have a problem with what you are calling early prep, but Hunter is looking
to see how this differs from the past where early prep was racket well
behind the back shoulder and racket mostly pointing to back/side fence....not
2 hands on racket directly in front of the back shoulder like Stan here. I guess
calling it early prep is fine, but confusing from a different early prep in classic
instruction pov.

It's also hard to say this prep is earlier than Evert and other old schoolers who
ran around the court at times with the racket already in full back position.
IMO Stan is a better example of continuous loop, than early prep and also don't
see why you can't have a loop with a lower tk back. It's more obvious
with a high tk back, but a lower tk back can do a small loop too, right?
thanks for your insights

I never said players today take the racket back earlier. Only that they are more coiled on their forehand prep. As you and Cheetah pointed out, you see more oldschool players like Chris Evert pointing more or less at the ball, while todays players have that off arm pointing more or less at the side fence during their prep.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

Yeah pointing at the ball is something you saw pros doing in the Chris Evert Days. Today, most are pointing to the side fence with their off-hand during their forehand preparation. Players today coil even more than the oldschool players during their preparation on groundstrokes.

See the pics. Oudin, Roddick and Nadal did not play when Chrissie was playing.

I think Cheetah's point about it happening in neutral stance is valid, even though you see Oudin do that in almost open stance.

Isner:

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/7Ucqw...SqH/John+Isner

[FrisbeeFool]

Originally Posted by sureshs

See the pics. Oudin, Roddick and Nadal did not play when Chrissie was playing.

I think Cheetah's point about it happening in neutral stance is valid, even though you see Oudin do that in almost open stance.

Isner:

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/7Ucqw...SqH/John+Isner

Yeah I agree with both of you. In some of those pictures you posted, the player has already begun opening up and swinging. That is why the front shoulder is more opened. You paused the stroke at one point. It you looked at their entire stroke most modern players have a point in their forehand prep where their front shoulder is closed, and their off arm is pointed more or less at the side fence

[FrisbeeFool]

Just found this great article where Stan Smith talks about the Federer forehand, and some of the issues we're discussing here with the modern forehand prep.

http://legacy.tennis.com/articles/te...=367&zoneid=11

[Cheetah]

They are not pointing at the ball
isner http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex0iyi2UuCY&t=27s

nadal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp_XHBXGbUs&t=12s

oudin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JLpx59yDMw&t=7s

Evert pointing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isIsqXHn-F4

[5263]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

Just found this great article where Stan Smith talks about the Federer forehand, and some of the issues we're discussing here with the modern forehand prep.

http://legacy.tennis.com/articles/te...=367&zoneid=11

Very nice find here, thanks for the ref.
Nice Pic here of what we call stalking-
http://legacy.tennis.com/articles/ar...forehand_1.jpg
Especially the 1st one.

Stan does a good job of course, but few things to notice,
I'm not a grip zealot, but is it a sw grip? Many say Eastern.
Someone got the pics out of sequence right? for a reason?

Where he says "Federer is turning his shoulders as he’s moving to the ball.
Notice how his left hand is on the racquet even though he’s well into his preparation.
This forces him to turn his shoulders" This is not just exactly right.
The shoulders have NOT really turned from the body, or done much prep by coiling.
At that point he is really still just running to intercept the ball with everything pointing
the way he is running except his face as it watches the ball come in. His feet, hips,
shoulders are all facing the direction he is running, with the racket still in both hands,
in front of his chest/body/shoulders,(I call stalking) very much like in the ready position.
It's a instant later where he gets some shoulder turn to load and coil his core
for the shot.

[5263]

Nice of Stan to point this out as well_

His follow-through, which is to the side rather than extended out front, shows just how important rotation is in his forehand. In my era, ground strokes were more linear—straight back and straight forward.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by 5263

Nice of Stan to point this out as well_

Stan Smith hit cross court going straight forward? That is not possible.

Here is a video of Nastase-Smith. Stan hits very few groundies (mostly serve and volley) and in the few that I counted in the first 11 minutes before I lost patience, his finish was either across the body or at least up near the left of the forehead.

Same with Nasty. Nasty even goes so far as to swing across the body on service returns!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZezxpCqbI4

[LeeD]

Old school E forehand was followtru towards the TARGET, not straight ahead. Those old WilsonSS Medium 43/4's were easy 14 oz, hard to stop.
Nasty uses pure conti forehand grips, lots of wrist, and the rackethead has to followthru across his body. YOU try hitting conti topspin forehands. I know, because not only did I play conti forehand in the '70's, but my current right handed forehand is conti topspin.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Old school E forehand was followtru towards the TARGET, not straight ahead. Those old WilsonSS Medium 43/4's were easy 14 oz, hard to stop.
Nasty uses pure conti forehand grips, lots of wrist, and the rackethead has to followthru across his body. YOU try hitting conti topspin forehands. I know, because not only did I play conti forehand in the '70's, but my current right handed forehand is conti topspin.

Hopefully that is what Stan meant - follow through towards target, not straight forward.

But I saw him following through across the body, and that too with an open stance, in one shot. As you also noticed, Nasty was also following through across his body.

[LeeD]

Those are GUYS hitting pro level shots. They cannot stop their 14+ oz rackets once they get them going, nor should they bother to.
Chrissie played with a lighter racket, a much more controlled swing, and also followed thru past the target most of the time.
The notion of following thru towards your target was to get duffer players to extend thru their shots, instead of stopping the swing at impact, like duffer's sometimes do.
In the old daze, the prevailing thought was if you followthru'ed wrapped around your body, you would not have time to recover towards center of intersect for the reply shot.
Now with TOPSPIN, the ball goes slower, you have more time to recover, and nobody is standing at net to volley away your passing shot.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Those are GUYS hitting pro level shots. They cannot stop their 14+ oz rackets once they get them going, nor should they bother to.
Chrissie played with a lighter racket, a much more controlled swing, and also followed thru past the target most of the time.

The quote was by a guy, in case you did not notice.

[5263]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Old school E forehand was followtru towards the TARGET, not straight ahead. .

thAnk you Lee.

[sureshs]

Which neither Stan nor Nasty were doing.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Which neither Stan nor Nasty were doing.

Ok, neither were doing what?
Be careful with your answer, lol

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Here is a video of Nastase-Smith. Stan hits very few groundies (mostly serve and volley) and in the few that I counted in the first 11 minutes before I lost patience, his finish was either across the body or at least up near the left of the forehead.

Same with Nasty. Nasty even goes so far as to swing across the body on service returns!

So now where have we heard all this ?? Seems like a fellow named Oscar tried
to share with you how the Pros hit one way, but often spoke of it quite different
than what they actually did in matches. This was one of the big motivations to
write his books...to point this out like you just did.

[FrisbeeFool]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Those are GUYS hitting pro level shots. They cannot stop their 14+ oz rackets once they get them going, nor should they bother to.
Chrissie played with a lighter racket, a much more controlled swing, and also followed thru past the target most of the time.
The notion of following thru towards your target was to get duffer players to extend thru their shots, instead of stopping the swing at impact, like duffer's sometimes do.
In the old daze, the prevailing thought was if you followthru'ed wrapped around your body, you would not have time to recover towards center of intersect for the reply shot.
Now with TOPSPIN, the ball goes slower, you have more time to recover, and nobody is standing at net to volley away your passing shot.

I'm pretty sure she played with a Wilson pro staff midsize at one point which is a very heavy traditional frame. She also played with traditional wood rackets in the wood racket era.