Armstrong drops fight against doping charges - Page 22

Bartelby · 10-11-2012, 12:54 AM

Guardian Summary

• The US anti-doping agency has charged Lance Armstrong with organizing and enforcing "the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen." In a 200-plus page report with hundreds of pages of supporting documents, the Usada presents evidence that Armstrong used banned substances throughout his career and coerced others into doing so.

• For the first time the report discloses the testimony of George Hincapie, a former Armstrong teammate and a widely respected figure in the cycling world. Hincapie said Armstrong used EPO, testosterone and other banned substances and engaged in illegal blood transfusion. He describes many scenes of drug use.

• In addition to using banned substances himself, Armstrong pressured other riders to do so and threatened them with ejection from the team if they did not comply, the report says. A subsection of the report is devoted to "retaliation against witnesses."

FloridaAG · 10-11-2012, 05:34 AM

Anyone who remains unconvinces will not be convinced unless they personally saw Armstrong doping. I never had any doubt and certainlty don't now.

About the testing - most of these guys never failed one either. Why exactly woudl Hincapie be lying? He just retired and has now discredited his career. Give me a break. Why were they paying Ferrari? They knew when the tests were coming and/or cheated the tests and hid from the testers when they knew they woudl fail.

Remove heads from sand.

drewski711 · 10-11-2012, 06:58 AM

If someone kills a person with a gun and 11 people testify that they saw it, you can still convict the person even if the prosecution can't produce the gun.

In reading through the affidavits, the best has to be Dave Zabriskie. Two highlights:

"In 2002, I started entertaining the Team on long bus rides with various and sundry songs. I remember one time that year I was at the front of the bus and sang a song to Johan about EPO (to the tune of Jimi Hendrix's song Purple Haze) that I heard from (unknown rider) and it stuck in my head. Johan laughed along as I sang.

EPO all in my veins
Lately things just don't seem the same
Acton' funny, but I don't know why
'Scuse me while I pass this guy"

"I began to ask questions. I was afraid of the health risks of using EPO and I had a lot of questions, such as: was it safe? Would I be able to have children? Would it cause any physical changes? Would I grow larger ears? I persisted with many questions."

Gotta love DZ

jonnythan · 10-11-2012, 07:13 AM

So the question remains... if Armstrong doped so much and ran such a huge doping operation, how come none of the blood and urine samples he's provided can be shown to contain banned drugs?

Dedans Penthouse · 10-11-2012, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartelby

McCarthy is still alive with the persecution of Assange, but he was a creature of the American political system and USADA is not.

So, from the above:

* Is Armstrong a doper? Most likely-we'll give that one a "yes."
* Strip Armstrong of his 7 little bicycle race awards? Yes.
* Ban Armstrong from any bicycle race affiliations? Yes.

---> Lance Armstrong...going....going......'gone'

__________________________________________________ __________

"the persecution of Assange" - LMAO!

Kinda obvious that ol' Lance was only the 1/2 of it eh, Bartelby?

So, from the above:

one can now conclude that you're even capable of extending your Yankeephobe agenda to include aligning yourself with rapists.

Bartelby supports rapists.

^^^^^
whadda ya think? ..... pretty disengenuous, eh?

drewski711 · 10-11-2012, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnythan

So the question remains... if Armstrong doped so much and ran such a huge doping operation, how come none of the blood and urine samples he's provided can be shown to contain banned drugs?

Two reasons:
1) The PED users are ordinarily one or two steps up from the drug testers. I'm in the medical field and have looked at this quite a bit. It's really hard to test for someone who is storing his own blood and putting it back into his system. EPO is tricky depending on the form of it used. Steroids are a bit easier but it also depends on what they've been using and some of the new ones are tough. HGH is getting better. There was a great documentary on ESPN last night about Ben Johnson/Carl Lewis and the other sprinters. It ends with one of the drug testing guy talking about when he went back and tested samples with better tests 4-5 years after the Olympics and things lit up. He decided it wasn't worth pursuing it any more

2) I get the sense that Postal had some sort of agreement with some of the testing people. Lance even donated money to some of the drug testing for the UCI. Everybody was making huge money off Lance and it was hard to stop that wave. It would have been the equivalent of Major League Baseball really testing McGuire and Sosa in in 98/99. It's hard to bring down the people that are bring so much interest and money to your sport.

jonnythan · 10-11-2012, 08:16 AM

Well it hasn't been 4-5 years. It's been 10-15 years. Why can't the USADA take some of those old samples and test them? If testing methods are so much better than in 1999 surely it would "light up" as you say.

drewski711 · 10-11-2012, 08:56 AM

They have been.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...in-2009_256658

r2473 · 10-11-2012, 09:02 AM

I wish the US Postal Service would give my mailman some EPO. Maybe that lazy SOB could deliver my mail before 6pm.....and on a daily basis.

r2473 · 10-11-2012, 09:04 AM

Anyone watch the 30 on 30 about the 100-meter dash at the Seoul games?

http://espn.go.com/30for30/

drewski711 · 10-11-2012, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r2473

Anyone watch the 30 on 30 about the 100-meter dash at the Seoul games?

http://espn.go.com/30for30/

Watched 9.79 last night after reading all the Armstrong stuff. Really well done. I don't know why, but I came away from it thinking Johnson, Lewis and Linford Christie were all taking PEDs but Calvin Smith wasn't.

adventure · 10-11-2012, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r2473

I wish the US Postal Service would give my mailman some EPO. Maybe that lazy SOB could deliver my mail before 6pm.....and on a daily basis.

Haha! USPS isn't too bad. UPS is abysmal. You'll wait until 8 PM for a scheduled delivery.

mad dog1 · 10-11-2012, 09:55 AM

at the end of the day, all the top riders and teams were doping. festina, astana, usps, you name them. they were all doping to stay competitive in the peloton. so just give everyone who raced from 1999-2006 a lifetime ban and scratch all the records. the playing field was level back then. heck, lance raced in an era where everyone doped and he was the fastest guy in those TdFs against a field of riders who have either been found guilty of doping or who have admitted to doping. it is what is is.

nothing anyone does, not USADA, can change the past so learn from history and press for change in the future.

fundrazer · 10-11-2012, 12:09 PM

Eh, again, even the doping doctors will tell you that it's not a "level playing field." Not everyone's body responds in the same way to EPO and whatnot. And think about one of the main headlines of the whole reasoned decision. People are calling it the largest and most sophisticated doping program in sport. Or something along those lines.

chrischris · 10-11-2012, 01:01 PM

Dont Mess with TX doesnt seem to work.

vive le beau jeu ! · 10-11-2012, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r2473

I wish the US Postal Service would give my mailman some EPO. Maybe that lazy SOB could deliver my mail before 6pm.....and on a daily basis.

would be even better if armstrong himself was delivering it to you...

mad dog1 · 10-11-2012, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fundrazer

Eh, again, even the doping doctors will tell you that it's not a "level playing field." Not everyone's body responds in the same way to EPO and whatnot. And think about one of the main headlines of the whole reasoned decision. People are calling it the largest and most sophisticated doping program in sport. Or something along those lines.

and people say cycling is a boring sport...just be the first to get to the finish line, heh? there's so many layers of strategy involved in cycling. more than anyone ever imagined! they were able to devise the most sophisticated cheating program in the history of sports. now that's exciting stuff!

sure, not everyone's body responds in the same way to EPO, but i'm sure they were using more than just EPO. landis was caught using testosterone. so everyone was trying to figure out which combo of PEDs their bodies would respond best to. seems lance and dr. ferrari was able to find the best cheating protoccol for his body. doesn't change the fact that all the top riders were using PEDs and also trying to find the best combo of drugs for their body, too.

at the end of the day, what good does it do to ban lance for life at this point? he's done racing anyways. he's made his money. it's a hollow victory. they can't change what's happened in the past so just chalk it up to experience and devise better testing methods to prevent and catch the cheats in the future. they should make the punishment more severe if caught cheating. a 2 yr ban isn't enough to dissuade individuals from doping. make it a 5 yr ban. cyclists don't start hitting their prime until the mid 20s anyways so by the time a 5 yr ban is up, they won't have many productive years left in their career. risking their entire career to dope? that will make them think twice before they decide to cheat.

maleyoyo · 10-11-2012, 02:27 PM

There will be a new marketing logo for his fans: “Lies strong, lies forever“

Bartelby · 10-11-2012, 06:51 PM

I didn't make the reference to McCarthy.

I merely pointed out that USADA has no political agenda.

I don't share your support of political persecution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dedans Penthouse

So, from the above:

* Is Armstrong a doper? Most likely-we'll give that one a "yes."
* Strip Armstrong of his 7 little bicycle race awards? Yes.
* Ban Armstrong from any bicycle race affiliations? Yes.

---> Lance Armstrong...going....going......'gone'

__________________________________________________ __________

"the persecution of Assange" - LMAO!

Kinda obvious that ol' Lance was only the 1/2 of it eh, Bartelby?

So, from the above:

one can now conclude that you're even capable of extending your Yankeephobe agenda to include aligning yourself with rapists.

Bartelby supports rapists.

^^^^^
whadda ya think? ..... pretty disengenuous, eh?

diggler · 10-11-2012, 06:58 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/...011-27fr2.html

Catching blood doping.

10-11-2012, 12:54 AM	#421
Bartelby Legend Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 6,640	Guardian Summary • The US anti-doping agency has charged Lance Armstrong with organizing and enforcing "the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen." In a 200-plus page report with hundreds of pages of supporting documents, the Usada presents evidence that Armstrong used banned substances throughout his career and coerced others into doing so. • For the first time the report discloses the testimony of George Hincapie, a former Armstrong teammate and a widely respected figure in the cycling world. Hincapie said Armstrong used EPO, testosterone and other banned substances and engaged in illegal blood transfusion. He describes many scenes of drug use. • In addition to using banned substances himself, Armstrong pressured other riders to do so and threatened them with ejection from the team if they did not comply, the report says. A subsection of the report is devoted to "retaliation against witnesses." __________________ Every government has its secret service branch ... A messy job? Well that's when they usually call on me ... Oh yes, my name is Drake, John Drake.

10-11-2012, 06:58 AM	#423
drewski711 New User Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 56	Highlights from the testimony If someone kills a person with a gun and 11 people testify that they saw it, you can still convict the person even if the prosecution can't produce the gun. In reading through the affidavits, the best has to be Dave Zabriskie. Two highlights: "In 2002, I started entertaining the Team on long bus rides with various and sundry songs. I remember one time that year I was at the front of the bus and sang a song to Johan about EPO (to the tune of Jimi Hendrix's song Purple Haze) that I heard from (unknown rider) and it stuck in my head. Johan laughed along as I sang. EPO all in my veins Lately things just don't seem the same Acton' funny, but I don't know why 'Scuse me while I pass this guy" "I began to ask questions. I was afraid of the health risks of using EPO and I had a lot of questions, such as: was it safe? Would I be able to have children? Would it cause any physical changes? Would I grow larger ears? I persisted with many questions." Gotta love DZ

10-11-2012, 07:13 AM	#424
jonnythan Professional Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,354	So the question remains... if Armstrong doped so much and ran such a huge doping operation, how come none of the blood and urine samples he's provided can be shown to contain banned drugs? __________________ If you play by the rules some might consider you a *. If that's a problem then, by all means, give away as many points as necessary for their approval

10-11-2012, 08:16 AM	#427
jonnythan Professional Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,354	Well it hasn't been 4-5 years. It's been 10-15 years. Why can't the USADA take some of those old samples and test them? If testing methods are so much better than in 1999 surely it would "light up" as you say. __________________ If you play by the rules some might consider you a *. If that's a problem then, by all means, give away as many points as necessary for their approval

10-11-2012, 09:02 AM	#429
r2473 Legend Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,412	I wish the US Postal Service would give my mailman some EPO. Maybe that lazy SOB could deliver my mail before 6pm.....and on a daily basis. __________________ “An ounce of bacon is worth a pound ounce of prevention.”