On the forehand: Early take back vs. continuous loop

[FrisbeeFool]

Originally Posted by arche3

There is also besides the height of the take back something else. The modern guys wait a split second longer to initiate the loop. To preserve the continuous loop. From unit turn to contact. Older era might wait with the racket behind them more often. I'm not even sure if the term unit turn is appropriate for the older era closed stance fhs.

Thanks this explains it really well. When I watch Wawrinkas backhand takeback I see him coil very early. Then he appears to stay coiled for a split second before he unloads. Same for forehands of all the top guys. I see them turn and coil very early, then they have their racket head high for a split second before it drops down and starts the "loop".

[Ash_Smith]

I think this debate always gets sidetracked by the difference between preparation and backswing. Prep is what the MTM'ers call "stalking", the unit turn with the racquet held in front of the chest area. Backswing is from this point where the hands split- from here there should really be no pause (assuming the hands have split high). For a player who has a straight back take back there will be a pause in the transition from back to forward.

cheers

[arche3]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

I think this debate always gets sidetracked by the difference between preparation and backswing. Prep is what the MTM'ers call "stalking", the unit turn with the racquet held in front of the chest area. Backswing is from this point where the hands split- from here there should really be no pause (assuming the hands have split high). For a player who has a straight back take back there will be a pause in the transition from back to forward.

cheers

So ash sums up whole argument in one sentence. Where is the fun in that ash? We will have one less thing to argue about..... go tackle the "across" thing in other threads now please.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

I think this debate always gets sidetracked by the difference between preparation and backswing. Prep is what the MTM'ers call "stalking", the unit turn with the racquet held in front of the chest area. Backswing is from this point where the hands split- from here there should really be no pause (assuming the hands have split high). For a player who has a straight back take back there will be a pause in the transition from back to forward.

cheers

Since unit turn can have only two directions (right or left), it can hardly be regarded as stalking. Stalking means constantly following your target, not being limited to one of two possibilities.

As far as watching the ball goes, there is no need for a new term for that - "watch the ball" or "keep your eyes on the ball" have been used for a long time.

Thus, the term stalking is misleading and of no use.

[bad_call]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Since unit turn can have only two directions (right or left), it can hardly be regarded as stalking. Stalking means constantly following your target, not being limited to one of two possibilities.

As far as watching the ball goes, there is no need for a new term for that - "watch the ball" or "keep your eyes on the ball" have been used for a long time.

Thus, the term stalking is misleading and of no use.

good point here. feel free to "create" whatever terminology either useless or vague that endears the lemmings...lol

[sureshs]

A lion which "stalked" by standing in one place with its front paws together and turned to the left or right only ain't getting no meal in the African savanna.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Since unit turn can have only two directions (right or left), it can hardly be regarded as stalking. Stalking means constantly following your target, not being limited to one of two possibilities.

Who is seeing things as black or white only now? lol

Unit turn is described in books as a full turn right from the start, and hands have
already split in traditional instruction, & more, whereas with stalking the turn is more
gradual, hands still on the racket and tracking the balls path with a timing mechanism.
Ash did a nice job with it overall.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by 5263

Who is seeing things as black or white only now? lol

Unit turn is described in books as a full turn right from the start, and hands have
already split in traditional instruction, & more, whereas with stalking the turn is more
gradual, hands still on the racket and tracking the balls path with a timing mechanism.
Ash did a nice job with it overall.

That is not true. The separation of the hands often begins quite early after the turn is started, sometimes almost along with the turn - as soon as there is an intention to hit. There is no distinct stalking phase with 2 hands on the racket like you describe. Even when it is longer for some, the hands are coming off before the turn is fully complete.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMji0...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqX8k...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctg18...feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtrk-y24hNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CVco0mkdsE

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

That is not true. The separation of the hands often begins quite early after the turn is started, sometimes almost along with the turn - as soon as there is an intention to hit. There is no distinct stalking phase with 2 hands on the racket like you describe. Even when it is longer for some, the hands are coming off before the turn is fully complete.

great post to illustrate what you don't understand.
But you think you know when there is an intention to hit and hands are separating
there? lol
I think they separate at intention to start a bk swing.
You list a bunch of vids with gals having the ball hit right to them and
think that shows anything?
Of course you just turn when the ball is coming to your Fh, but they all
used 2 hands on the racket and did most of the turn with hands in front
of their chest...even in these very poor examples of the topic.
Not the immediate split of the hands shown in tennis books for a unit turn.
not even a good try this time.

None of these are even print references, much less the books on classic
instruction over the last few decades that I referenced.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

A lion which "stalked" by standing in one place with its front paws together and turned to the left or right only ain't getting no meal in the African savanna.

Exactly...So why do the vids you use show gals standing and waiting for a
ball coming right to them where the stalking is more clear??

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by 5263

great post to illustrate what you don't understand.
But you think you know when there is an intention to hit and hands are separating
there? lol
I think they separate at intention to start a bk swing.
You list a bunch of vids with gals having the ball hit right to them and
think that shows anything?
Of course you just turn when the ball is coming to your Fh, but they all
used 2 hands on the racket and did most of the turn with hands in front
of their hands...even in these very poor examples of the topic.
Not the immediate split of the hands shown in tennis books for a unit turn.
not even a good try this time.

None of these are even print references, much less the books on classic
instruction over the last few decades that I referenced.

Hands in front of the hands is not the same as both hands on racket. Don't change your claims now. The hands separated quite early.

Regarding moving to the ball with the hands on the racket - let me see, that is called, well. moving to the ball. As in, without moving to the ball, you cannot hit those balls.

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by arche3

So ash sums up whole argument in one sentence. Where is the fun in that ash? We will have one less thing to argue about..... go tackle the "across" thing in other threads now please.

yeah, sorry about that - didn't really read through the first 5 pages!

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Hands in front of the chest is not the same as both hands on racket. Don't change your claims now. The hands separated quite early.

Regarding moving to the ball with the hands on the racket - let me see, that is called, well. moving to the ball. As in, without moving to the ball, you cannot hit those balls.

thanks, I corrected that typo.
I know it's tough for you not knowing the traditional instruction, so you can't
see how stalking the ball differs from that previous training and the need for
different terms.

[sureshs]

Why are you correcting what you said? Are you crazy or what? You said hands in front of hands and now you are changing the quote of what you said? Have you gone over the edge?

[HunterST]

Okay, so here's pretty definitive proof that Fed holds racquet at chest and then begins the stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI5Pa...vwp&NR=1#t=38s

This video, however, shows Serena taking the racquet back and waiting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNKIwi54HlY


So, basically, I guess the answer is it doesn't matter?

Obviously Federer has the better forehand, but is Serena's easier to copy for mortals?

[5263]

Originally Posted by HunterST

Okay, so here's pretty definitive proof that Fed holds racquet at chest and then begins the stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI5Pa...vwp&NR=1#t=38s

This video, however, shows Serena taking the racquet back and waiting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNKIwi54HlY


So, basically, I guess the answer is it doesn't matter?

Obviously Federer has the better forehand, but is Serena's easier to copy for mortals?

I get your point here, but think maybe this is not an area where Serena is
easier to copy. There are reasons for keeping the hands in front of you till
the best time for timing.
Do what works for you though, and good thread.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Why are you correcting what you said? Are you crazy or what? You said hands in front of hands and now you are changing the quote of what you said? Have you gone over the edge?

I corrected a typo and posted that I did so. What is the problem?
I even underlined the change to show what I had done.
It was just a typo there hoss.
Are you further over the edge than usual?

[bhupaes]

Originally Posted by HunterST

Okay, so here's pretty definitive proof that Fed holds racquet at chest and then begins the stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI5Pa...vwp&NR=1#t=38s

This video, however, shows Serena taking the racquet back and waiting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNKIwi54HlY


So, basically, I guess the answer is it doesn't matter?

Obviously Federer has the better forehand, but is Serena's easier to copy for mortals?

Ultimately, it's all about timing, IMO. Federer tracks the ball with the racquet in front of him until the ball bounces (or close to it), and has a very compact backswing which he is able to execute very late (after bounce). Serena has a much larger loop - perhaps because she needs it to generate power, or maybe because it was the way she learned it from childhood - so she has to start the backswing much earlier for the timing to work out okay. Of the two, I would think the Serena type FH would be more error prone than Fed's as far as timing is concerned since it incorporates more variables. Bottom line is, there are many ways to hit the ball...

[arche3]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Why are you correcting what you said? Are you crazy or what? You said hands in front of hands and now you are changing the quote of what you said? Have you gone over the edge?

Suresh your nuts. If you can't see that was a typo you need to up your meds.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by 5263

I corrected a typo and posted that I did so. What is the problem?
I even underlined the change to show what I had done.
It was just a typo there hoss.
Are you further over the edge than usual?

When you first corrected my post, I checked your post. You had not corrected it then.

Now you have corrected it.

You understood the mistake only after I pointed it out.