Heavy Topspin is Overrated.

[5263]

Originally Posted by LeeD

I never believed "playing the percentages" is the right ploy for my unique talents. P the P's is for guys who need to win NOW, while I don't, and only need to hit higher level shots, not every time, but enough often for my needs.

But the advise here is not mostly for you. You know how you need to play and
have tons of experience.

But here you are giving advise to avg players, that don't usually have your more
unique situation. That is where you can help more players, while also
sharing with others dealing with mobility issues when that comes up, right?

[GuyClinch]

This is the problem with anecdotal evidence. It's just not all convincing to anyone without a preconcieved view.

Yes a player who hit with heavy topspin lost to a guy who hit with less topspin. This doesn't mean the topspin hurt the loser. For all we know if he flattened out his strokes he might have lost even quicker. He might have lacked footwork or skill or fitness or simple athletic ability..

What we would need to see to decide that 'topspin is overrated' is that legions of players from places that emphasize topspin lose to legions of players that hit flatter..

Seeing that guys like Murray and Nadal use a ton of top - this does not seem to be happening. All we can learn from the anecdote is that SOMETIMES players who hit with heavy top lose to guys who hit with less topspin. Something any tennis fan could have told you..

OP could have said..

Experience is overrated - the less experienced player won.
OR
Height is overrated if the taller player lost.
OR
Speed/Footwork etc is overrated if the guy with less awesome footwork won..

Anecdotal evidence is bad. Don't base your arguments on it.
Del Porto wins tennis matches and Nadal wins matches. Clearly topspin won't kill you nor will hitting flatter..

[Frank Silbermann]

The reason the guys with heavy topspin didn't seem as good is because heavy topspin allows lousy players to compete above their ability. You can gain the benefits of becoming a pusher -- and better -- without actually having to develop self-control.

[maggmaster]

Ah yes because a topspin game is not real tennis....

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Frank Silbermann

The reason the guys with heavy topspin didn't seem as good is because heavy topspin allows lousy players to compete above their ability. You can gain the benefits of becoming a pusher -- and better -- without actually having to develop self-control.

You have something there. I don't agree about the heavy topspin part - to have heavy anything needs skill. But do I think that club level topspin often hides a basic inability to control and place the ball by maintaining a firm hand? Absolutely. The same is true for the use of graphite frames and large heads. It helps players to get away with excessive use of wrist, bad fundamentals, and bad footwork.

[TheCheese]

It's not the heavy topspin that's the problem, it's the loopy shots. If the other kid hit heavy topspin balls with a flatter trajectory he would be more consistent than the other kid and hit just as penetrating shots.

Topspin =/= loopy. Look at Federer, he gets the 2nd most amount of RPMs on the tour and he's not just hitting loopers. Once you start trying to hit through the court with a lot of pace, you NEED the topspin to keep it in.

[5263]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

It's not the heavy topspin that's the problem, it's the loopy shots. If the other kid hit heavy topspin balls with a flatter trajectory he would be more consistent than the other kid and hit just as penetrating shots.

The problem is on here, many think that if you hit TS, you are hitting soft & loopy.
I guess that is what they do, see and recognize. Maybe when they face
strong TS with lower trajectory, maybe they don't recognize the TS that is on
it??

[user92626]

Originally Posted by Frank Silbermann

The reason the guys with heavy topspin didn't seem as good is because heavy topspin allows lousy players to compete above their ability. You can gain the benefits of becoming a pusher -- and better -- without actually having to develop self-control.

their ability in what? in hitting topspin shots?

Oooh my head is spinning just thinking about your statement.

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by 5263

The problem is on here, many think that if you hit TS, you are hitting soft & loopy.
I guess that is what they do, see and recognize. Maybe when they face
strong TS with lower trajectory, maybe they don't recognize the TS that is on
it??

Maybe.

I think that it's most likely because most people on here probably aren't playing people who can hit flat trajectory heavy topspin shots. Most rec players have to choose between hitting flat with pace or slow, loopy, and spinny.

However, obviously this doesn't have to be the case. If anyone has seen ground level camera angles of Federer playing, you can easily tell. 2nd most RPMs on tour, yet hits very penetrating shots. It's all in the technique.

[5263]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Maybe.

I think that it's most likely because most people on here probably aren't playing people who can hit flat trajectory heavy topspin shots. Most rec players have to choose between hitting flat with pace or slow, loopy, and spinny.

However, obviously this doesn't have to be the case. If anyone has seen ground level camera angles of Federer playing, you can easily tell. 2nd most RPMs on tour, yet hits very penetrating shots. It's all in the technique.

yep, obvious to you and I
and hopefully many more.

[Mick3391]

Originally Posted by KenC

Last night I watched the semifinal of a local 5.0+ tournament and there was this 14yo 5.0 phenom against an 18yo 5.5 topspin monster. The 14yo hit with a modest to normal amount of topspin just to keep the ball in while the 18yo used a full western grip with the typical overworked strokes. Every time the 18yo hit one of the massive topspin FHs the 14yo just nailed it back twice as hard. The massive topspin had no effect on a 14yo. The 14yo won 7-5, 6-3.

I've been noticing a lot of these matchups lately. It seems those who hit with more pace and just enough topspin to keep the ball in are doing more damage than those who try to hit massive topspin. Apparently, all the effort going into hitting massive topspin is robbing them of needed pace.

I know everyone is enamored with topspin, but it begs the questions: Do you really do damage to your opponent with all that topspin? Really? When was the last time a player beat you with topspin?

Topspin is incredibly important. However the problem these days is that kids are trained to ONLY do topspin. To be an all-court player, we need topspin when it calls for it, flat shots when it calls, and slice.

I trained my son on flat shots. Today he got KILLED in a USTA Tourny by a topspin monster, but that is not why he lost.

He lost 6-3, but my sons serves (I just am not a trainer, I can't get him a serve), gave the other kid 2-3 games. My sons serve just lobbed over and the other kid killed it with topspin.

So we are now working on topspin, and slice, when I say "Working", it means hours and hours of work.

The most important thing in Tennis, in my opinion, is movement and shot placement. A guy can KILL a topspin shot over, but if you move, you can do whatever you want with it.

By the way, if whatever losers who have nothing to do but criticize me, I want to be on this forum, I just can't handle the heckling over and over, not reading what I say before commenting. I figured I'm a 5.5, because techically you have to be ranked to be a 6.0, but I figured that since I WAS ranked, should I lower my ranking even though I can beat ranked guys?

I played Justin Bower, he's 34 and went to 2nd round at Wimbledon, he's second only to Fed at the most consecutive weeks without a loss, he's beat Mardy Fish, and he was great, yea, but his shots didn't impress me, it was his movement, after ten minutes I was dead, so yea rank me where you like, I WOULDN'T beat Bower, but I can hold my own, so criticize all you want, it's fact.

[vil]

Originally Posted by Mick3391

Topspin is incredibly important. However the problem these days is that kids are trained to ONLY do topspin. To be an all-court player, we need topspin when it calls for it, flat shots when it calls, and slice.

I trained my son on flat shots. Today he got KILLED in a USTA Tourny by a topspin monster, but that is not why he lost.

He lost 6-3, but my sons serves (I just am not a trainer, I can't get him a serve), gave the other kid 2-3 games. My sons serve just lobbed over and the other kid killed it with topspin.

So we are now working on topspin, and slice, when I say "Working", it means hours and hours of work.

The most important thing in Tennis, in my opinion, is movement and shot placement. A guy can KILL a topspin shot over, but if you move, you can do whatever you want with it.

By the way, if whatever losers who have nothing to do but criticize me, I want to be on this forum, I just can't handle the heckling over and over, not reading what I say before commenting. I figured I'm a 5.5, because techically you have to be ranked to be a 6.0, but I figured that since I WAS ranked, should I lower my ranking even though I can beat ranked guys?

I played Justin Bower, he's 34 and went to 2nd round at Wimbledon, he's second only to Fed at the most consecutive weeks without a loss, he's beat Mardy Fish, and he was great, yea, but his shots didn't impress me, it was his movement, after ten minutes I was dead, so yea rank me where you like, I WOULDN'T beat Bower, but I can hold my own, so criticize all you want, it's fact.

Hmm....you made a point, but I can't understand what's this bit of self-defence all about. It's like you were preparing for a shower of criticism.

[KenC]

Originally Posted by Mick3391

Topspin is incredibly important. However the problem these days is that kids are trained to ONLY do topspin. To be an all-court player, we need topspin when it calls for it, flat shots when it calls, and slice.

I think you got the point of the post. Yes topspin is very important for today's game, but it is only one element and plays a supporting role, not a dominant role. Topspin doesn't win matches. When was the last time someone lost and said "I couldn't handle the guy's topspin?" Topspin is an element of tennis, not a strategy.

[firepanda]

I'm surprised to see this thread is still alive. Tennis tips is much much better reading than anything in pro discussion.

I thought I'd just repeat myself and say topspin is vital at the highest levels. No pro can hit the ball and have it land in without topspin, not even the Del Potros. It's also an extremely effective tactic at both pro and amateur levels in a consistent, baseline game.

However, it is completely overrated and overused by people lacking footwork, technique and/or power. I just saw my nephew play. He uses a western grip, completely open stance and WW forehand. His favourite player is Nadal. >_>
I swear I could hear his wrist dislocate a little more with every shot.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by vil

Hmm....you made a point, but I can't understand what's this bit of self-defence all about. It's like you were preparing for a shower of criticism.

You'd understand if you look at some of his previous posts. same pattern.

[vil]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

You'd understand if you look at some of his previous posts. same pattern.

Ok, I sensed there must've been something happening previously...

[Power Player]

Originally Posted by Frank Silbermann

The reason the guys with heavy topspin didn't seem as good is because heavy topspin allows lousy players to compete above their ability. You can gain the benefits of becoming a pusher -- and better -- without actually having to develop self-control.

I love reading your posts. They are usually so off base and close minded that it is hilarious. Pretty sure you are the guy who said that Jerzy is the only guy on tour hitting with a correct forehand. That's awesome. Someone needs to contact Murray, Djoker, Rafa, Fed..etc and let them know that their inferior technique is incorrect and they need to return their slam trophies immediately.

[Power Player]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

It's not the heavy topspin that's the problem, it's the loopy shots. If the other kid hit heavy topspin balls with a flatter trajectory he would be more consistent than the other kid and hit just as penetrating shots.

Topspin =/= loopy. Look at Federer, he gets the 2nd most amount of RPMs on the tour and he's not just hitting loopers. Once you start trying to hit through the court with a lot of pace, you NEED the topspin to keep it in.

Exactly. I have really flattened out my trajectory lately, and the spin is still on the ball. Both can be done.

[WildVolley]

Among younger juniors there's a lot of topspin moon-balling that wins matches. At the more advanced levels, especially on hard courts, less moon balling takes place.

There's also a certain level of mythology you'll hear about net clearance in the professional game that simply isn't true. I've heard people claim that 3-6' above the net is standard for the professional men. On hard courts at least this isn't true. I try to get out to professional tournaments when I can. Usually the average rally ball is hit in a window from 1' to 4' over the net with a lot of pace and spin. Some players cut it much closer and you'll see multiple shots in a set tick off the top of the net cord.

I don't think the pros are aiming to net skim, but it is a result of driving the ball hard with a lot of topspin. The modern drive forehand has a lot of vertical component to put speed on the ball and the spin helps keep it in the court. This necessitates hitting fairly close to the net. The higher net clearance shots are used to drive the opponent back, to mess with a bh, or to give the hitter time to recover. Even Nadal can easily rip a 90mph forehand within a foot of the net when he's going for a winner.

[Power Player]

W/out a doubt. My best shot is the heavy driven forehand with top. The main issue I have sometimes is I hit a little low since I use an 18x20 pattern, but the advantage is that I can hit harder and heavier knowing the ball will drop in safely.

The open pattern spin game does work, but it is against lower level players that I can also beat just by taking my foot off the gas a little and using angles more.