Low Friction Poly X's For Gut Mains : Softer Alternative to MSV Co-Focus?

[TenFanLA]

Gut/LTec 4S > Gut/CoF in softness, playability, longevity in my experience.

[ChicagoJack]

Wow. Lots of awesome replies, thanks so much. I've added a bunch more strings and links to the original 1st page post. Just a few candidates I missed the first time around, and mostly everything mentioned in the thread so far, as easy reference points.

-Jack

[Power Player]

So far Black Magic feels absolutely awesome as a gut cross with only 2 pounds of overall tension loss.

[mctennis]

Originally Posted by JT_2eighty

I'm using ToughGut 16L. Mosquito Bite is only an 18 gauge (1.16mm), and I'm using the blue version (some say different colored strings of the same gauge/type can play differently). This was compared to CoFocus gold 1.18

I'm using the same set up- Tough Gut 16L mains and MB crosses. I have not tried the blue MB but I am using the white color one. I do like this better than just about any other set up.
I just tried another set up just recently. It is the same Tough Gut mains 16L and Mamba Discho Iontec 1.25g crosses (black). I think this has a great feel and softness as well.
I am doing a side by side on the above two string combinations. They have about 4-6 hours on them so far.
I am so-so with the MSV Co-Focus crosses. It seems with even a slight mishit the string bed is jarring. Even with the gut mains in it.

[TenFanLA]

( 213.2 ) .. ( 0.089 ) .. MSV Co-Focus 16L
( 214.3 ) .. ( 0.074 ) .. Solinco Outlast 17
( 214.3 ) .. ( 0.085 ) .. MSV Hepta Twist 17, edges, twisted
( 237.0 ) .. ( 0.098 ) .. MSV Focus Evo 17
( 262.3 ) .. ( 0.071 ) .. Ltec Premium 4S 16L

WOW! JUST WOW! Maybe that's why my elbow's been hurting. I just came back from a 1 month layoff due to sore elbow and a work project. I played 1.5 hrs of doubles with Tonic/4s and my elbow is already sore. Ok, I may have to go with Tonic/Iontec Black. Too bad. Gut/4s plays so well with great spin, pop and control.

[ChicagoJack]

Originally Posted by Power Player

So far Black Magic feels absolutely awesome as a gut cross with only 2 pounds of overall tension loss.

Hi PP,

I seem to remember (when we were both hanging in the PD Black Drive Fan thread) that you've used Gut/Co-Focus. How does Black Magic (as a cross for gut mains) compare in terms of comfort, spin? I tend to use the available lab testing just to whittle my demo choices down to a small pool of options. If not for Drakulie's comments about Black Magic "it enhances the feel of the gut, instead of deadening it" I would have completely overlooked it, as it sits right about in the middle of the pack in terms of poly stiffness according to the USRSA 2012 string selector digits. Is it one of those situations (and I've had lots of them myself) where the lab data just doesn't line up with what you feel on the court?

-Jack

[corners]

Just wanted to note that Topspin Cyberflash 17L, which comes in as the least stiff copoly in Chicago Jack's updated list is quite a soft poly, but the stiffness number being so low is largely a result of how poor it is at holding tension. (The stiffness is measured after tension loss.)

Here is Cyberflash 17L vs. Gosen Sidewinder (Stiffness) ... (CoF) ... (Total Tension Loss):

Cyberflash 17L (166.3) ... (.098 ) ... (34.8 )

Sidewinder 17 (180.6) ... (.090) ... (24.5)

Both strings were strung at 60 pounds but after striking the strings with a hammer 20 times in a manner designed to simulate 20 120 mph serves, the Cyberflash 17L ended up at 27.52 pounds and the Sidewinder 17 ended up at 37.84 pounds. These are the tensions at which they were tested for stiffness. The Cyberflash had ten pounds less tension on it at that point - no wonder it tested so incredibly soft.

If we use the TWU String Performance Database and sort by "Actual Tension", the actual tension it is tested at following the tension-loss simulation, we can do a more direct comparison of the stiffness of these strings:

Cyberflash 17L (strung at 60 pounds, but tested at 27.2): (166.3)

Sidewinder 17 (strung at 50 pounds, but tested at 27.85): (159.4)

(Also, I think Nanosilver is a multi)

[Power Player]

Originally Posted by ChicagoJack

Hi PP,

I seem to remember (when we were both hanging in the PD Black Drive Fan thread) that you've used Gut/Co-Focus. How does Black Magic (as a cross for gut mains) compare in terms of comfort, spin? I tend to use the available lab testing just to whittle my demo choices down to a small pool of options. If not for Drakulie's comments about Black Magic "it enhances the feel of the gut, instead of deadening it" I would have completely overlooked it, as it sits right about in the middle of the pack in terms of poly stiffness according to the USRSA 2012 string selector digits. Is it one of those situations (and I've had lots of them myself) where the lab data just doesn't line up with what you feel on the court?

-Jack

Jack..yes so far this is the best feeling setup i have used. I have about 2 hours of hitting in, and off the stringer it has dropped from 57 to 53. So the tension loss so far is better then cofocus. The feel is also better, as black magic has incredible feel for a poly string. I still like cofocus, but as for right now i would pick black magic over it since it simply plays better for me so far. It is a very controlled setup that is extremely comfortable, yet the ball feel is absolutley perfect. The blx blade has some nice power, so to control it more i string at 60/55.


The other thing to add is that while some people say the bm dies really fast, i find that i get 8-10 hours out of a full job. That should easily equate to 16-20 hours which is what i need out of gut poly in an 18x20 pattern to justify the cost.

[ChicagoJack]

Originally Posted by corners

Just wanted to note that Topspin Cyberflash 17L, which comes in as the least stiff copoly in Chicago Jack's updated list is quite a soft poly, but the stiffness number being so low is largely a result of how poor it is at holding tension. (The stiffness is measured after tension loss.)

Here is Cyberflash 17L vs. Gosen Sidewinder (Stiffness) ... (CoF) ... (Total Tension Loss):

Cyberflash 17L (166.3) ... (.098 ) ... (34.8 )

Sidewinder 17 (180.6) ... (.090) ... (24.5)

Both strings were strung at 60 pounds but after striking the strings with a hammer 20 times in a manner designed to simulate 20 120 mph serves, the Cyberflash 17L ended up at 27.52 pounds and the Sidewinder 17 ended up at 37.84 pounds. These are the tensions at which they were tested for stiffness. The Cyberflash had ten pounds less tension on it at that point - no wonder it tested so incredibly soft.

If we use the TWU String Performance Database and sort by "Actual Tension", the actual tension it is tested at following the tension-loss simulation, we can do a more direct comparison of the stiffness of these strings:

Cyberflash 17L (strung at 60 pounds, but tested at 27.2): (166.3)

Sidewinder 17 (strung at 50 pounds, but tested at 27.85): (159.4)

(Also, I think Nanosilver is a multi)

Corners -

Cool. Thanks for the heads up. I figured that tension loss was a factor, I just had no idea the disparity, it's a huuge deal it would seem. I'm flowing the actual tension / pre test digits into the list now. I will keep the reference tension (62 lbs) and swing speed (fast) so that the parameters of the two indexes remain consistent. When I get those three sets of digits all stacked up, somebody a whole lot better at math than I am, ought to create some sort of formula to assimilate the implied meanings of the three factors (hint hint)

-Jack

[ChicagoJack]

Originally Posted by corners

One thing to note is that when comparing the same string model, the stiffness decreases sharply as you go down in gauge while the CoF stays about the same. This makes sense as the CoF is a function of the string material or string coating material and is independent of surface area. (Surface shape may be another story.)

I've compared various models in different gauges and based on this I would estimate that Co-Focus 18 has stiffness of around 190 and CoF of .097.

Hi corners,

Quick question fer ya. You've mentioned that when string goes down in diameter, string gets softer, and the CoF stay about the same. Your estimate for 18g Co-Focus has indeed a lower stiffness, but your estimated COF is higher at .097 vs the .089 of the 16g. I'm puzzling over that.

Thanks!

Jack

[corners]

Originally Posted by ChicagoJack

Hi corners,

Quick question fer ya. You've mentioned that when string goes down in diameter, string gets softer, and the CoF stay about the same. Your estimate for 18g Co-Focus has indeed a lower stiffness, but your estimated COF is higher at .097 vs the .089 of the 16g. I'm puzzling over that.

Thanks!

Jack

Hi Jack, I think my estimate for the COF on CoFocus 18 was simply an error in typing or something. I would use the 16L number. Looking through the data, I haven't seen any significant difference in interstring COF between the same string in different gauges, which is consistent with the fact that COF is (counter-intuitively) independent of surface area. (I would estimate that CoFocus 18 would end up about 33 pounds at test, BTW).

String-ball COF, however, is another story - the thicker gauges appear to grab the ball a bit better - but since we're looking at cross strings here we don't really care about that ... except from the perspective that a cross string with high string-ball COF might tear up gut mains more quickly. But that would depend on the shape of the string. The spiky ones, I think, are best avoided as crosses, but the flat (Polymaster) and square/squoval (Tourbite/4S) ones might be ideal.

I wish I had time to playtest strings right now as it would be good to get some realworld input into this thread. I would really like to try gut/Polymaster II and gut/Zyex Monogut (Monogut ZX), as well as Monogut ZX/Polymaster II, which might be a great poor man's Fed setup.

I'm also jazzed to try Tourbite 16/Polymaster II at pretty high tension in Wilson's new 16x15 pattern. The reduced number of cross strings should reduce the overall stringbed stiffness considerably, possibly making this pattern a legit full-poly option for those of us that have been sticking with gut/poly to play it safe with our arms.

[corners]

Originally Posted by ChicagoJack

Corners -

Cool. Thanks for the heads up. I figured that tension loss was a factor, I just had no idea the disparity, it's a huuge deal it would seem. I'm flowing the actual tension / pre test digits into the list now. I will keep the reference tension (62 lbs) and swing speed (fast) so that the parameters of the two indexes remain consistent. When I get those three sets of digits all stacked up, somebody a whole lot better at math than I am, ought to create some sort of formula to assimilate the implied meanings of the three factors (hint hint)

-Jack

Nice work getting the actual testing tension into your table. It seems to me that, all things being equal, a copoly that loses less tension beats one that loses more. Unfortunately, the only copolys that hold tension at all well are the stiffer ones - 4G (the new champ), Bab Hurricane Feel, 4S, etc. If I used a really heavy racquet with high swingweight I would pair those with natural gut. But since I use a 12 ounce frame with moderate SW, and am always looking for some extra comfort and pop, I focus exclusively on the soft copolys. And one of the benefits of those is that you can raise the tension of the gut somewhat, which helps with snapback, I feel. I've been using budget guts strung around 55 pounds in a 95 and have found the gut to bag out and stop snapping back before it breaks, which is unacceptable Probably I wouldn't have this problem with Klip or Pacific guts, but I would really like a slippery cross soft enough to string at 60 pounds, which is the tension where gut is the most powerful (highest energy return and fastest snapback).

BTW, the large number of nylon strings with low COF in your table is interesting. I think we can conclude that when strung fresh these guys would make great crosses with gut mains. But we know from the Japanese studies that notching kills the snapback mechanism, and as far as I know all nylon strings notch and dent. The possible exceptions might be the flat Gosen strings - Powermaster and Compositemaster.

[TenFanLA]

I tried Tonic/Iontec Black at 52/48. It was pretty good overall but it does not match the feel, spin, pop and control of Tonic/4S. The dynamic pace, spin and ball movement I get with gut/4S has not been matched by any other cross except 0S and Alu. CoF, SPPP, Iontec Black, BHSR, etc. are all nice crosses but they are BMW's, Infiniti's and Mercedes compared to the Supercars Alu, 0S and 4S.

[Centerforward71]

Originally Posted by wmilas

I know what you mean about going nuts trying different strings. I tried nearly every poly as a main trying to find something better than a gut/poly hybrid. I got burned out and when I could find nothing better than the gut/cofocus benchmark I stopped. I never tried experimenting with the poly part of the hybrid though. This should be interesting.

Try a stiff poly like genesis twisted razor at 35-38 full bed

[corners]

Originally Posted by Centerforward71

Try a stiff poly like genesis twisted razor at 35-38 full bed

I haven't tried stiff polys in a full bed at low tensions, but have played soft copolys at 35 pounds quite a bit and find them the best cheap alternative to gut/poly at 55 that I've found. But, copoly at low tensions is a bit unpredictable on volleys and returns.

[parasailing]

There's no way Pacific natural gut is softer than Wilson or Babolat natural gut. I tried a couple sets of Pacific and they felt much stiffer than Wilson or Babolat natural gut. Keep in mind I am talking about non BT7 Babolat gut here.

I like Ltec 4s for it's tension maintenance and overall complements VS/Wilson/Prince natural gut mains. Kisrchbaum Evolution is also another good poly cross.

[Centerforward71]

Originally Posted by corners

I haven't tried stiff polys in a full bed at low tensions, but have played soft copolys at 35 pounds quite a bit and find them the best cheap alternative to gut/poly at 55 that I've found. But, copoly at low tensions is a bit unpredictable on volleys and returns.

I find the stiffer and textured poly much more effective at taking advantage of the low tension. The softer poly seemed deader. I.e. signum SPPP Give it a try genesis tws rzr is awesome

[Boricua]

Originally Posted by JT_2eighty

I've been comparing ToughGut/CoFocus to a ToughGut/WC Mosquito Bite setup. I think the TG/MB outperforms TG/CoF in terms of playability over time. In my dense, flexy racquet, strings take a long while to break, so I've logged plenty of hours on each. Both are very comfortable, but CoF became harder to control after a number of matches, while MB crosses maintain softness AND control over a very long span of time & matches.

It would be interesting if twu decides to test MB to see where it falls in the spectrum of lab tests; however, from my experience MB has a more consistent playability over time, so while CoF crosses are just as comfy, I find them to get too springy after the same time period. MB wins the tension stability battle. CoF is a great second place. I've decided to settle on the tg/mb setup and end my string experimentation madness. Out of the handful of hybrids I've tried, CoF & MB crosses both stay the softest for the longest period of time. That's a tough attribute to find as most polys get a bit harsh if you don't break/cut-out the strings within a few matches.

While I do agree that low string-string friction results in easier spin, I think the small differences between the various polys will result in negligible (if any) difference in actual rpms. Regardless of the poly, a gut/poly setup yields great spin and playability; after testing out at least 10-15 different gut/poly setups, to me the real decider is *playability over time*. Some setups you can feel the poly Die within a few matches and some even a few sets. Few setups stay soft or consistent for a long time, while most others become harsh and/or lose control match by match. Some setups create a mismatch of properties where the stiffness of the poly overshadows the feel of the gut. Some are great for only a match. All these factors and various *subjective feel* components that I've noticed have lead me to ToughGut/MB, but this may not work for others with different racquets, preferred tensions or preferred feel requirements.


That said, if you like a dense, flexible frame, and employ a variety of spins and flat shots, looking for a good pocketing feel and consistent playability over time, I'd take a look at Gut/MB.

I use an Aeroprodrive GT. Its a stiff and open pattern racket. I hit with spin all the time. Which gut/poly setup do you think would be better?

[JT_2eighty]

Originally Posted by Boricua

I use an Aeroprodrive GT. Its a stiff and open pattern racket. I hit with spin all the time. Which gut/poly setup do you think would be better?

Probably something you can get in a 16 or 16L gauge, depending on how quickly you break strings. I would think 16 gauge gut of your choice (I like Pacific but others may prefer a Babolat or Wilson feel), and then if you want a primarily Comfy cross with good spin... CoFocus 16L is a good one. How many hours are you looking to get? How quickly do you go through a gut/poly setup? Do you want comfort as your main attribute, or control or just pure spin?

[Power Player]

Just wanted to chime in that while I am not going to use gut/poly full time, the black magic cross is still performing excellent after 5-6 hours of hitting. tension loss is 4 pounds total.