Clay Court GOAT - Page 59

BobbyOne · 10-24-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Timnz offered evidence that Koželuh has the equivalent of 10 important clay tournament titles, and Nusslein has 4.

Shouldn't Koželuh be ranked higher?
Did Nusslein win the equivalent of 9 clay majors?

I rate Nüsslein's clay majors a bit higher because he faced stronger competition (Vines, Tilden, Cochet, Budge).

Nüsslein's 9 clay majors:

1933 World Championships Berlin
1936 World Championships Paris
1934 US Pro
1937 French pro
1938 French pro
1936 British pro Southport
1937 British Pro Southport
1938 British pro Southport
1939 British Pro Southport, Budge participating

Dan Lobb · 10-24-2012, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem

1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Rosewall
4. Wilding
5. Cochet
6. Lendl
7. Wilander
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Laver
11. Borotra
12. Drobny
13. Vilas
14. Santana
15. Bruguera
16. Pietrangeli
17. Courier
18. Muster
19. Federer
20. Kodes
21. von Cramm
22. Emerson
23. Nastase
25. Trabert
26. Orantes
27. Panatta
28. Agassi
29. Connors
30. Nusslein
31. Tilden
32. Gimeno
33. Frank Parker
34. Roche
35. Sven Davidson
36. Jack Crawford
37. Fred Perry
38. J.E. Patty
39. Decugis
40. Segura

Strange, no mention of Hoad.
In case you don't know, he owned Davidson on clay (beat him at Roland Garros final, Italian final, Egyptian final, Toronto final), also Pietrangeli at Roland Garros, and beat Trabert in their two meetings at Roland Garros in 1958 and 1960. His lifetime against Rosewall on clay is about 50:50, perhaps better than that.
And Toto Brugnon stated that Cochet, Lacoste, and Tilden would have won only a few games against Hoad on clay.
In 1970, at age 35, and coming out of retirement, he beat 21-year-old Orantes at centre court in the Italian in five sets.

Dan Lobb · 10-24-2012, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

I rate Nüsslein's clay majors a bit higher because he faced stronger competition (Vines, Tilden, Cochet, Budge).

Nüsslein's 9 clay majors:

1933 World Championships Berlin
1936 World Championships Paris
1934 US Pro
1937 French pro
1938 French pro
1936 British pro Southport
1937 British Pro Southport
1938 British pro Southport
1939 British Pro Southport, Budge participating

These look like minor majors.

BobbyOne · 10-24-2012, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Strange, no mention of Hoad.
In case you don't know, he owned Davidson on clay (beat him at Roland Garros final, Italian final, Egyptian final, Toronto final), also Pietrangeli at Roland Garros, and beat Trabert in their two meetings at Roland Garros in 1958 and 1960. His lifetime against Rosewall on clay is about 50:50, perhaps better than that.
And Toto Brugnon stated that Cochet, Lacoste, and Tilden would have won only a few games against Hoad on clay.
In 1970, at age 35, and coming out of retirement, he beat 21-year-old Orantes at centre court in the Italian in five sets.

I agree that Hoad should be included in that proud list and on a high place.

I believe that Rosewall leads Hoad on clay. Altogether I counted 83:59 matches in Rosewall's favour.

Hoad also beat Orantes in 1970 at Madrid 6-3,6-3 before losing to Santana in four sets.

BobbyOne · 10-24-2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

These look like minor majors.

Dan, If I would belittle Hoad like you belittle Nüsslein, you maybe would become angry...

timnz · 10-24-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

I rate Nüsslein's clay majors a bit higher because he faced stronger competition (Vines, Tilden, Cochet, Budge).

Nüsslein's 9 clay majors:

1933 World Championships Berlin
1936 World Championships Paris
1934 US Pro
1937 French pro
1938 French pro
1936 British pro Southport
1937 British Pro Southport
1938 British pro Southport
1939 British Pro Southport, Budge participating

Tell us more about the 1936 World Championship Paris. I think you've mentioned it before. What do you know about it? It obviously isn't the French Pro because Cochet won that in 1936.

hoodjem · 10-24-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

I agree that Hoad should be included in that proud list and on a high place.

I believe that Rosewall leads Hoad on clay. Altogether I counted 83:59 matches in Rosewall's favour.

Hoad also beat Orantes in 1970 at Madrid 6-3,6-3 before losing to Santana in four sets.

Certainly. I tend to think of Hoad as a grass-court player or power player (on hard court)--my closed-minded thinking.

Dan Lobb · 10-25-2012, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

I agree that Hoad should be included in that proud list and on a high place.

I believe that Rosewall leads Hoad on clay. Altogether I counted 83:59 matches in Rosewall's favour.

Hoad also beat Orantes in 1970 at Madrid 6-3,6-3 before losing to Santana in four sets.

Do you mean altogether ON CLAY, or altogether on every surface? I think that on clay alone, the life-time score is very close, unless you exclude some events.

pc1 · 10-25-2012, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Do you mean altogether ON CLAY, or altogether on every surface? I think that on clay alone, the life-time score is very close, unless you exclude some events.

I believe he meant all surfaces.

BobbyOne · 10-25-2012, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timnz

Tell us more about the 1936 World Championship Paris. I think you've mentioned it before. What do you know about it? It obviously isn't the French Pro because Cochet won that in 1936.

timnz, I don't know too much, alas.

The 1936 Paris World Championship was held in August (no exact date). Nüsslein beat Tilden in SF and Cochet (in straight sets) in final. The schedule was made probably to push Cochet into the final. I do know that Plaa, Ramillon and A. Burke participated.

If I remember well, Tilden betted before the tournament that Cochet would win.

BobbyOne · 10-25-2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1

I believe he meant all surfaces.

pc1, Yes I did. And the 50:50 balance for clay given by Dan cannot be right.

pc1 · 10-25-2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

timnz, I don't know too much, alas.

The 1936 Paris World Championship was held in August (no exact date). Nüsslein beat Tilden in SF and Cochet (in straight sets) in final. The schedule was made probably to push Cochet into the final. I do know that Plaa, Ramillon and A. Burke participated.

If I remember well, Tilden betted before the tournament that Cochet would win.

As you know BobbyOne, Nusslein never lost a set to Cochet. That's is incredible.

BobbyOne · 10-25-2012, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1

As you know BobbyOne, Nusslein never lost a set to Cochet. That's is incredible.

Yes, Nüsslein won all ten matches he played against Cochet in straight sets.

kiki · 10-25-2012, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

timnz, I don't know too much, alas.

The 1936 Paris World Championship was held in August (no exact date). Nüsslein beat Tilden in SF and Cochet (in straight sets) in final. The schedule was made probably to push Cochet into the final. I do know that Plaa, Ramillon and A. Burke participated.

If I remember well, Tilden betted before the tournament that Cochet would win.

what a young field¡ with Cochet 35 and Tilden 43¡¡¡

BobbyOne · 10-25-2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki

what a young field¡ with Cochet 35 and Tilden 43¡¡¡

I see that you have again forgotten history .

Cochet was very strong in 1936 winning the French Pro clearly and reaching the finals of World Championships and the Southport event. He even won several amateur tournaments from 1945 to 1949 after he was reamateurized.

I rank Cochet No.6 for 1936.

Also Tilden was a top ten player that year. Don't forget that Big Bill beat Budge at least three times in 1939 (out of about 10 matches between them).