Clay Court GOAT

[pc1]

Dan and BobbyOne,

Let's try to be logical about the head to head of Rosewall against Hoad on clay. Dan, what is your head to head records on clay of the two and what is your head to head records in total?

BobbyOne, same questions.

The reason I ask this is because we have to see if the percentage that either one of you have of the two playing on clay is reasonable or not.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Only in your Hoad eyes.

Rosewall and Hoad did not play so many clay matches! They mostly played on fast surfaces.

Yes, this is true. But this is beside the point.
Hoad had a fantastic clay record.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by pc1

Dan and BobbyOne,

Let's try to be logical about the head to head of Rosewall against Hoad on clay. Dan, what is your head to head records on clay of the two and what is your head to head records in total?

BobbyOne, same questions.

The reason I ask this is because we have to see if the percentage that either one of you have of the two playing on clay is reasonable or not.

pc1, I have not counted the claycourt matches. As amateurs Hoad seems to have the edge even though some people wrote that Rosewall was stronger on clay.

1957 Hoad could be 6:3. In 1958 Rosewall lead 6:1 on clay.

In the 1960s Rosewall has probably the edge as he won the huge majority of all Hoad/Rosewall matches.

All surfaces I have Rosewall 83:59 against Hoad

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by pc1

Dan and BobbyOne,

Let's try to be logical about the head to head of Rosewall against Hoad on clay. Dan, what is your head to head records on clay of the two and what is your head to head records in total?

BobbyOne, same questions.

The reason I ask this is because we have to see if the percentage that either one of you have of the two playing on clay is reasonable or not.

Part of the problem is ignorance; we do not know the surfaces for every score we have.
Here is a partial list of Hoad wins over Rosewall:

1952 Australian Hardcourt Final (shale clay)
1953 Australian Hardcourt Semifinal (shale clay)
Hoad and Rosewall skipped the 1955 clay season preparing for the Davis Cup, and Hoad won many clay events in 1956 while Rosewall was in Australia preparing for Wimbledon on grass.
1957 European tour: Hoad won tour on red shale clay against Rosewall (6 to 3?) (8 to 4?)
1957 The Hague: Hoad defeated Rosewall in marathon five set final on red shale, Segura in semi-final.
1957 Cairo: Hoad defeated Rosewall on clay in marathon five sets
1957 South Africa: Hoad won tour, but surfaces are unknown.
1959 Roland Garros: Hoad wins third place against Rosewall
1960 Geneva: Hoad defeats Rosewall in final
1960 Tokyo: Hoad defeats Rosewall in Japanese Pro final on clay
1962 Hoad wins Italian tour on clay, Hoad/Rosewall matches unknown

These are the known Hoad wins.

For Rosewall over Hoad;
1958 Roland Garros final
1960 Roland Garros final
1962 Geneva final
1963 Poertschach, Austria (Bobby, did you see it? Was it on clay?)
1963 and 1964 Cannes, Palais des Sports, possibly indoor, not clay

Looks like a probable edge for Hoad, although any clay matches after 1964 came after Hoad lost his large right toe to surgery, and was less mobile.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

pc1, I have not counted the claycourt matches. As amateurs Hoad seems to have the edge even though some people wrote that Rosewall was stronger on clay.

1957 Hoad could be 6:3. In 1958 Rosewall lead 4:1 on clay.

In the 1960s Rosewall has probably the edge as he won the hugh majority of all Hoad/Rosewall matches.

All surfaces I have Rosewall 83:59 against Hoad

In 1958, a 4-1 lead on clay? Apart from Roland Garros, did they play any tournament matches on clay?

[kiki]

I don' t think Hoad has any plan to come back to planet if he follows this thread...I thought he was a funny golden boy specially adored by women...can anybody tell some funny story of him?

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Part of the problem is ignorance; we do not know the surfaces for every score we have.
Here is a partial list of Hoad wins over Rosewall:

1952 Australian Hardcourt Final (shale clay)
1953 Australian Hardcourt Semifinal (shale clay)
Hoad and Rosewall skipped the 1955 clay season preparing for the Davis Cup, and Hoad won many clay events in 1956 while Rosewall was in Australia preparing for Wimbledon on grass.
1957 European tour: Hoad won tour on red shale clay against Rosewall (6 to 3?) (8 to 4?)
1957 The Hague: Hoad defeated Rosewall in marathon five set final on red shale, Segura in semi-final.
1957 Cairo: Hoad defeated Rosewall on clay in marathon five sets
1957 South Africa: Hoad won tour, but surfaces are unknown.
1959 Roland Garros: Hoad wins third place against Rosewall
1960 Geneva: Hoad defeats Rosewall in final
1960 Tokyo: Hoad defeats Rosewall in Japanese Pro final on clay
1962 Hoad wins Italian tour on clay, Hoad/Rosewall matches unknown

These are the known Hoad wins.

For Rosewall over Hoad;
1958 Roland Garros final
1960 Roland Garros final
1962 Geneva final
1963 Poertschach, Austria (Bobby, did you see it? Was it on clay?)
1963 and 1964 Cannes, Palais des Sports, possibly indoor, not clay

Looks like a probable edge for Hoad, although any clay matches after 1964 came after Hoad lost his large right toe to surgery, and was less mobile.

Dan, I did not see Poertschach 1963. Then I did not know about Rosewall and Hoad. I only knew amateurs. Yes, it was on clay.

I believe The Hague and Cairo tournaments were part of the tour and should not be counted twice.

Rosewall was clearly stronger than Hoad from 1961 onward. Therefore he probably dominated him also on clay those years (1961 to 1964).

The 1957 South African matches have probably been played on hard court.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

In 1958, a 4-1 lead on clay? Apart from Roland Garros, did they play any tournament matches on clay?

Dan you again forgot the Perrier Cup: not a tournament but an important event and of course must be considered for the balance.

I have corrected myself: Rosewall was 6:1 against Hoad on clay in 1958 (4:1 in Perrier Cup, 1:0 in French pro and 1:0 at Scheveningen).

Considering the later years of Hoad's career (1961 to 1964) I guess that Rosewall has the edge on general clay playing.

[urban]

Its in general a problem to reconstruct, which events on the old pro tour were on clay. The Brits called all outdoor courts outside lawn tennis hard courts. In McCauleys book no surfaces are given. Geneva was a clay court, i have seen programs of the event, which was played in a club. Kitzbuhl was clay too, the Belgian and Dutch events at the sea, too. In France, not all events were clay, Cannes for instance was played in a Palais du sport indoors. On the Italian tour, clay and indoor events took place, its hard to tell which were clay. I have seen films of the Cannes indoor play, which was played on a linol underground.
For South Africa i would assume hard courts. Certainly the main Johannesburg event was on hard court at Ellis Park. For the US, some Florida and California events could be clay events. In Hollywood, Florida, a clay event took place. Following my information, the Oklahoma event was played on clay.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Dan, I did not see Poertschach 1963. Then I did not know about Rosewall and Hoad. I only knew amateurs. Yes, it was on clay.

I believe The Hague and Cairo tournaments were part of the tour and should not be counted twice.

Rosewall was clearly stronger than Hoad from 1961 onward. Therefore he probably dominated him also on clay those years (1961 to 1964).

The 1957 South African matches have probably been played on hard court.

The Hague and Cairo tournaments were actual TOURNAMENTS outside the European tour, and, of course, Cairo is not in Europe at all.
The South African version of "hardcourt" was, like the Australian, a type of dark shale clay, so this would count as clay.
It still looks like an edge for Hoad lifetime on clay against Rosewall, especially as we have to exclude the two Cannes wins, which were not on clay.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by kiki

I don' t think Hoad has any plan to come back to planet if he follows this thread...I thought he was a funny golden boy specially adored by women...can anybody tell some funny story of him?

He had a lot of Hollywood friends, Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall, Debbie Reynolds, Frank Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, Sean Connery (a close friend, with whom he would share an apartment in Paris), Peter Ustinov, Kirk Douglas, Charlton Heston, Juiie Adams (co-star with Jimmy Stewart in "Bend of the River", whom he was photographed visiting on set in 1954).
Although Lauren Bacall and Debbie Reynolds lost husbands through death and divorce in the late fifties, there was no "affair" with Hoad, despite the circumstances and reports of the interest of the actresses.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

He had a lot of Hollywood friends, Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall, Debbie Reynolds, Frank Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, Sean Connery (a close friend, with whom he would share an apartment in Paris), Peter Ustinov, Kirk Douglas, Charlton Heston, Juiie Adams (co-star with Jimmy Stewart in "Bend of the River", whom he was photographed visiting on set in 1954).
Although Lauren Bacall and Debbie Reynolds lost husbands through death and divorce in the late fifties, there was no "affair" with Hoad, despite the circumstances and reports of the interest of the actresses.

Great character this Hoad.I know he was long time and happily married to Jenny but I guess, the guy was just a world wide sex simbol.

I remember how spanish press, even yellow press adored him , not just because of his close friendship with spanish players and living in the south of the country, but also because he helped so much the spanish team reach the DC finals...against Australia.He left big memories there and so did wife Jenny.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by urban

Its in general a problem to reconstruct, which events on the old pro tour were on clay. The Brits called all outdoor courts outside lawn tennis hard courts. In McCauleys book no surfaces are given. Geneva was a clay court, i have seen programs of the event, which was played in a club. Kitzbuhl was clay too, the Belgian and Dutch events at the sea, too. In France, not all events were clay, Cannes for instance was played in a Palais du sport indoors. On the Italian tour, clay and indoor events took place, its hard to tell which were clay. I have seen films of the Cannes indoor play, which was played on a linol underground.
For South Africa i would assume hard courts. Certainly the main Johannesburg event was on hard court at Ellis Park. For the US, some Florida and California events could be clay events. In Hollywood, Florida, a clay event took place. Following my information, the Oklahoma event was played on clay.

Well explained, urban.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

The Hague and Cairo tournaments were actual TOURNAMENTS outside the European tour, and, of course, Cairo is not in Europe at all.
The South African version of "hardcourt" was, like the Australian, a type of dark shale clay, so this would count as clay.
It still looks like an edge for Hoad lifetime on clay against Rosewall, especially as we have to exclude the two Cannes wins, which were not on clay.

The South African "Hardcourt" is not the British and Australian (clay) "Hardcourt"!

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

The South African "Hardcourt" is not the British and Australian (clay) "Hardcourt"!

You mean, in Britain and Australia in the 1950's and 1960's, "hardcourt" meant a clay court, but in South Africa (also descended from British tennis traditions and terminology) it meant something other than clay? Doesn't sound right.
Of course, today, "hardcourt" in the U.S. refers to a rubber surface.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

You mean, in Britain and Australia in the 1950's and 1960's, "hardcourt" meant a clay court, but in South Africa (also descended from British tennis traditions and terminology) it meant something other than clay? Doesn't sound right.
Of course, today, "hardcourt" in the U.S. refers to a rubber surface.

Clay-courts were called "hardcourts" back in the 1920s and before.

[hoodjem]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Clay-courts were called "hardcourts" back in the 1920s and before.

This is interesting.

Yes, the red ones can get pretty hard if they bake in the summer heat.

(The green ones can get spongy if subjected to a lot of rain.)

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

You mean, in Britain and Australia in the 1950's and 1960's, "hardcourt" meant a clay court, but in South Africa (also descended from British tennis traditions and terminology) it meant something other than clay? Doesn't sound right.
Of course, today, "hardcourt" in the U.S. refers to a rubber surface.

Ellis Park hosted the biggest hard court, cement court event for many many years, so in SAF players start their tennis careers on hard hard, similar to California.

The British always refeered to their clay court championships as hard courts, see Bournemouth, considered one of the world´s premiere cc events till 1970.

I don´t knoe about Australians, they seem to have no cc all round the country¡

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

You mean, in Britain and Australia in the 1950's and 1960's, "hardcourt" meant a clay court, but in South Africa (also descended from British tennis traditions and terminology) it meant something other than clay? Doesn't sound right.
Of course, today, "hardcourt" in the U.S. refers to a rubber surface.

Dan, You could accept that South Africa does not have clay even though this does not fit to your Hoad admiration as Lew has won a tour on South African Hardcourts which does not count for his clay record.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

Ellis Park hosted the biggest hard court, cement court event for many many years, so in SAF players start their tennis careers on hard hard, similar to California.

The British always refeered to their clay court championships as hard courts, see Bournemouth, considered one of the world´s premiere cc events till 1970.

I don´t knoe about Australians, they seem to have no cc all round the country¡

They had their annual Australian Hardcourt Championships on clay.