Pushing serves.legit strategy?

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Isn't there always the question of, should we try to play our BEST tennis, or should we play what is winning?
Winning, we might push and play conservative, winning more, but never getting any better at tennis.
Best tennis, we will lose lots of matches, for sure, but we also learn to hit harder and heavier shots, learn where and when to hit them, and make the attempt to ADVANCE our level of tennis, not just winning where we already are.
Should I max out my winning percentages at 3.5-4.0?
Or should I hit like a 5.0, miss like a 3.0, and play like a hard hitting 4.0?

There is a difference between practicing drills and matchplay. The time to get better is in practice, not during a match. When it is match time, the goal is to win the match. If you do it by using what you practiced, great, if you do it another way... still great!

Many miss the point that learning to win by whatever means necessary is it's own skill and one you can't practice with drills, it can only be honed during matchplay, so work on it.

[LeeD]

Learning to win, opposed by learning to play like a good player.
You can practice all day like a lion, then go out and push like a lamb....to win.
I'd rather practice like a lion, then play like a lion, hopefully winning a few to fuel the fire, of course.

[LeeD]

Are we saying a 40 year old cannot hit shots like the pros? It sure isn't physical, so is it between the ears?
Yeah, you gotta get in some kind of shape. Yeah, you gotta try. What's stopping you?
I"m not saying to PLAY like DJ. I'm saying to hit shots like DJ. For sure, we can't hit every shot like them, but one in 3, for sure. Every other, possibly.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Learning to win, opposed by learning to play like a good player.
You can practice all day like a lion, then go out and push like a lamb....to win.
I'd rather practice like a lion, then play like a lion, hopefully winning a few to fuel the fire, of course.

Notice that the OP said that his opponent was feeding off the pace of his fast serves. He didn't turn to his slow-serve tactic out of cowardice or whatever-- he turned to it because his original tactic was proving ineffective.

I think that if my faster serves aren't good enough to trouble a given opponent, I need to practice and improve them, then bring the improved product back to match play. Insisting on hitting a shot that's lower-percentage and yet not particularly threatening doesn't seem like the way to go.

[LeeD]

Someone pummelling your fast serves, you spin it into a corner, not dinkball 3.0 it into the court. You spin your second serve into the body, both sides, you kick it over their shoulders, then you go back and hit the corners with your first serve, or body shot the guy.
What you don't do is hit lazy serves into the court, wasting YOUR time and HIS time.
You wanna win, or you wanna get better at tennis? Getting better, you suffer early loses, then get better and pummel those low level guys that you USED to be.
Win, you stoop to the lowest denominator, win some now, and never ever get good at tennis.

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

There is a difference between practicing drills and matchplay. The time to get better is in practice, not during a match. When it is match time, the goal is to win the match. If you do it by using what you practiced, great, if you do it another way... still great!

Many miss the point that learning to win by whatever means necessary is it's own skill and one you can't practice with drills, it can only be honed during matchplay, so work on it.

well I disagree. of course overhitting is bad but I know a some guys that hit big in training but play fearful and pushing in matches. you need to practice good hitting in matches too or you wont be mentally able to pull it off consistently. that does not mean hit as hard as you can all the time but gradually increase your hitting power so that you gain confidence in matches.

if you play like a pro in practice but push in matches you will have a hard time translating this to matches. there are many "practice world champions".

what makes you win in the short run must not the best for winning in the future.

I have that pushing disease a little too. I hit big in training but I'm often a little afraid of errors in matches. I play my best against way superior opponents since then I really swing for the fences because I have nothing to lose.

[tennis tom]

I think the OP is talking about "spinning it in". Nothing wrong with this he said he was getting tired, better then quitting or risking form falling off so far, reaching for a bad toss and injuring a shoulder or an arm--and it works against players who can't produce their own pace lacking technique and feed off their opponent's pace. This works especially well in dubs where a big serve does not allow the server to come in and get set for the volley.

I have trouble reproducing the serve I hit for practice when there's someone on the other side of the net. Some how having a body even, if they're barely breathing over there, makes my biceps and triceps want to get involved, rather then maintaining a live arm motion, with no hitches, fully utilizing the almost infinite elements of the serve.

Just my 2 cents. (Am I the last one on Al Gore's internet to use the term "Just my 2 cents"?

[LeeD]

I thought OP was pattycaking his serves in.
We are what we practice. You should hit practice serves with someone standing on the other side, racket in hand.
And we can never practice good tennis, then play push, and expect all of a sudden, we can play good tennis. Ain't gonna happen. You need to implement what your practice in your play.

[chatt_town]

I wouldn't underhand serve....but my serve most of the time hits top speeds of maybe 30 mph. There have been some days where I've served really well and hit 9 or 10 aces but that is maybe twice a year. Most of the guys I run across in 4.0 or even some 4.5 leagues have tried to murder the serve as opposed to putting me on defense. I have above average speed so they they have to hit a damn good shot to hit a clean winner even with the the serve being in the middle of the box. it also helps that i serve a lot of second serves right down the middle of the court to cut off the angles. So i think if you are smart you'd mixed these serves in from the beginning of the match. You'd be surprised how many free points you get.

Originally Posted by dlam

I was playing the other day and serving normally, the pace of my serve usually hits close to the line and bounce and reach the back fence.
By the third set I was getting tired and double faulting.
So I took off a LOT of pace , by justing serving with arm motion and not letting my feet leave the ground or have any forward momentum.
Essentially I was pushing my serves and letting gravity fall the ball in the middle of the service court and barely bouncing it to the back line, no where close to my normal pace.
This seem to work really well.
My opponent usually feeds of the pace of my serve ,
This time he trouble and hit some returns into the net.
Now I thinking this might be a way to conserve energy and throw some unexpected change ups serves.
So I serve mostly weak slices, reverse slices, I even thought about underhanded serving
To mix it up, I served a few fast pace serves.
He couldnt hit a winner of the returns plus made a lot of unforced error into the net.

I never seen anyone do this.
Legit strategy?

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Learning to win, opposed by learning to play like a good player.
You can practice all day like a lion, then go out and push like a lamb....to win.
I'd rather practice like a lion, then play like a lion, hopefully winning a few to fuel the fire, of course.

You oversimplify the game by proposing that tennis is a 2 dimensional game with "lion" and "lamb" (Low percentage and high percentage) on one axis and "win" and "lose" on the other.

You are going to get much farther in this game in the long haul, by learning to recognise opponents who have a low percentage game who will fall to a player (you) with a high percentage game.

In what universe is matching an opponent with a low percentage game with one of your own a good strategy for winning, be it at 2.5, 3.5 or 4.5?

If you played a guy with no backhand return, where would you go with your first serve on setpoint? To his backhand.

If you play a guy with no wheels and no volley, would you think about dropping him? You'd be an idiot not to.

Similarly if you play a guy who can hit at most 5 shots before shanking one into the net or long, would it be the right move to select shots that you only have a 66% chance of getting in? That is a recipe for disaster in a match you could easily win.

The ability to win matches is not a light switch than any ol' player can switch on and win at will. It also needs to be practiced. Playing "well" but losing matches that are winable is not improving your game, you are fooling yourself.

[LeeD]

And that's exactly why you are a 4.5, and will remain so, until the day you start your decline.

[Ronaldo]

Watch the Luxembourg Final with Venus. She armed her serve in and won the title. Seved like a lamb, played like a Lioness. Plan Z, just win baby.

[LeeD]

Serena is at the top of the game.
OTOH, you and I aren't, and could use the practice.

[Ronaldo]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Serena is at the top of the game.
OTOH, you and I aren't, and could use the practice.

Serena, Have Gun, Will Travel. Then Venus wins without it. Must be in the jeans, eh?

[Rjtennis]

I would use slow heavy topspin serves to change things up. Intentionally drastically lowering you racket head speed and changing your serving motion will end up hurting you if the match gets tight. You want to use the same motion just different serves. Serving really slow sitters also won't get you far at higher levels.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

You oversimplify the game by proposing that tennis is a 2 dimensional game with "lion" and "lamb" (Low percentage and high percentage) on one axis and "win" and "lose" on the other.

You are going to get much farther in this game in the long haul, by learning to recognise opponents who have a low percentage game who will fall to a player (you) with a high percentage game.

In what universe is matching an opponent with a low percentage game with one of your own a good strategy for winning, be it at 2.5, 3.5 or 4.5?

If you played a guy with no backhand return, where would you go with your first serve on setpoint? To his backhand.

If you play a guy with no wheels and no volley, would you think about dropping him? You'd be an idiot not to.

Similarly if you play a guy who can hit at most 5 shots before shanking one into the net or long, would it be the right move to select shots that you only have a 66% chance of getting in? That is a recipe for disaster in a match you could easily win.

The ability to win matches is not a light switch than any ol' player can switch on and win at will. It also needs to be practiced. Playing "well" but losing matches that are winable is not improving your game, you are fooling yourself.

i second that 100%

there are good hitters and good matchplayers. some can be both, and that´s the recipe to improve and become your best.
tennis is after all a game, which includes tactics, the ability to read one´s opponents game, to evaluate a situation, and not just a ball-hitting contest

[Big_Dangerous]

Originally Posted by Tennishacker

Is it legit, yes, but IMO not within the, "spirit of sportsmanship".

Sounds like your ability to control your serve places you in the 4-4.5 range, your opponent seems to be a lower rated player.

Your strategy will work against lower rated players, but will not work with 4.0 and higher rated players.

When I play matches (match pressure), I always try to play my best, always looking for ways to improve my game.

Isn't what we're all kind of taught about the serve, is that sometimes you just have to get it over the net and in the box.

I understand and even respect the fact that you want to play your best or play really well. I mean I think we all do and strive for that. However, hardly ever do we really and truly play our "best in match situations. And part of the game is figuring out how you are supposed to win a match or beat a guy when you aren't playing your best.

[treblings]

There´s an old tennis wisdom. i think it goes back to Pancho Gonzales but i could be wrong. that says, you don´t have to hit hard serves all of the time, just the threat that you could hit them is enough. and than you vary pace, depth, spin, slice,.... to throw of the returner

[Magnetite]

Do whatever your opponent is uncomfortable with.

If he can't hit a slow serve (no idea why this would be the case), hit slow serves.

If he can't hit faster serves, serve faster, as long as you don't double fault.

If your opponent has a weaker backhand return, serve to his backhand.

If you don't know, vary the speed, spin, trajectory and placement.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by Magnetite

Do whatever your opponent is uncomfortable with.

If he can't hit a slow serve (no idea why this would be the case), hit slow serves.

sometimes players go for too much on a slow serve. players with extreme grips can´t get under the ball if it´s not only slow but also short
lots of times it´s the variation though