Top 10 women players of all time at this point- where would you place Serena

[Gizo]

Originally Posted by kiki

Peal Hingis owned the field.Peak Henin did not

Peak Hingis owned one of the worst fields in women's tennis history in 1997. Peak Henin owned a good quality women's field in 2007. I'm not saying that 2007 was one of the strongest years in the history of women's tennis or anything, but it was clearly a much stronger yield than the incredibly weak 1997.

In 2007 Henin won 2 slams out of the 3 that she played in and the YEC, won 63 matches out of 67, and in 14 tournament appearances won 10 titles, finished as a runner-up once and a losing semi-finalist the other 3 times.

She had winning h2hs that year against every single other member of the top 10 apart from Hantuchova who she never played in 2007, and all 15 of the other top 20 players that she played.

That's what I call owning the field.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Gizo

Peak Hingis owned one of the worst fields in women's tennis history in 1997. Peak Henin owned a good quality women's field in 2007. I'm not saying that 2007 was one of the strongest years in the history of women's tennis or anything, but it was clearly a much stronger yield than the incredibly weak 1997.

In 2007 Henin won 2 slams out of the 3 that she played in and the YEC, won 63 matches out of 67, and in 14 tournament appearances won 10 titles, finished as a runner-up once and a losing semi-finalist the other 3 times.

She had winning h2hs that year against every single other member of the top 10 apart from Hantuchova who she never played in 2007, and all 15 of the other top 20 players that she played.

That's what I call owning the field.

Hingis played much more all time greats than Henin.henin never play Seles or Graf.

[Alexandros]

Originally Posted by kiki

Hingis played much more all time greats than Henin.henin never play Seles or Graf.

Henin played Serena. 1 more =/= much more

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Alexandros

Henin played Serena. 1 more =/= much more

So did Hingis.Both played the 2 Williams.maybe Clijsters and old Davenport can be regarded as great opponents for Henin.maybe Capriati and Sharapova.But, except the russian, all of them played also against Martina.Hingis also had multislammers like Graf,Seles,Pierce,Sanchez,Novotna,Martinez...

[abmk]

Originally Posted by kiki

So did Hingis.Both played the 2 Williams.maybe Clijsters and old Davenport can be regarded as great opponents for Henin.maybe Capriati and Sharapova.But, except the russian, all of them played also against Martina.Hingis also had multislammers like Graf,Seles,Pierce,Sanchez,Novotna,Martinez...

novotna/martinez were not multi-slammers , but whatever suits you

[abmk]

Originally Posted by kiki

Hingis played much more all time greats than Henin.henin never play Seles or Graf.

seles post stabbing was a very good player, but not "great" ....hingis didn't face peak seles who totally dominated from 91-93 ......

[kiki]

Originally Posted by abmk

novotna/martinez were not multi-slammers , but whatever suits you

I was adding the slams of them all, of course, I know that those players were not multislammers.Maybe, it was a language mistake, or maybe you just want to understand what suits you...

BTW, Hingis owned Seles, stabbed or not.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by kiki

I was adding the slams of them all, of course, I know that those players were not multislammers.Maybe, it was a language mistake, or maybe you just want to understand what suits you...

BTW, Hingis owned Seles, stabbed or not.

Do you mean 'would have owned' ?

[kiki]

Osborne vs Navi would have been fantastic
Just like Hingis vs Lenglen, Mandlikova vs Bueno or Connolly vs Graf

[Gizo]

Originally Posted by kiki

Hingis played much more all time greats than Henin.henin never play Seles or Graf.

Henin played Seles 7 times, including at the 2001 Aussie Open and 2002 Wimbledon. They had a decent set of matches against each other.

The Seles that was on the tour during Hingis's dominance of the tour in 1997 was not only post stabbing Seles, but had become a further emotional and physical wreck after her father was diagnosed with stomach cancer that year.

And Hingis lost 2 out of her 3 matches against a post-prime Graf. Plus she never had to play Graf in 1997 and her dominance coincided with Graf's long absence from the tour.

I assumed that Hingis would have won more WTA titles that Henin, but checking the stats they both won 43 titles, so Hingis didn't even have the edge there. Hingis was a great player but more of a interim and 'filler' world no. 1 keeping the seat warm in-between the Graf and Williams sister eras.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Gizo

Henin played Seles 7 times, including at the 2001 Aussie Open and 2002 Wimbledon. They had a decent set of matches against each other.

The Seles that was on the tour during Hingis's dominance of the tour in 1997 was not only post stabbing Seles, but had become a further emotional and physical wreck after her father was diagnosed with stomach cancer that year.

And Hingis lost 2 out of her 3 matches against a post-prime Graf. Plus she never had to play Graf in 1997 and her dominance coincided with Graf's long absence from the tour.

I assumed that Hingis would have won more WTA titles that Henin, but checking the stats they both won 43 titles, so Hingis didn't even have the edge there. Hingis was a great player but more of a interim and 'filler' world no. 1 keeping the seat warm in-between the Graf and Williams sister eras.

30yrs old Seles.

[Gizo]

Originally Posted by kiki

30yrs old Seles.

The Seles of 2001-2002 was better than the Seles of 1997. The Seles of 1997 wasn't even close to being fully dedicated to her tennis, and understandably so given what was happening with her father. That year saw her in her worst physical and mental condition on the court. In 2002 she did well at all the majors, beating Venus at the Australian Open, giving Henin a huge scare at Wimbledon and beating Hingis at the US Open.

Really so many things fell in place for Hingis to dominate in 1997. A superb year but a huge of amount of luck in facing largely post-prime, pre-prime or emotionally wrecked competition. 2011 is one of the few years can I think of where the competition was worse than that.

To her credit she was able to hang around and remain a contender when a genuinely strong era emerged, but still she began to fall more into the background and was increasingly overshadowed at the big events.

[3fees]

The one that wears the longest skirt.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by 3fees

The one that wears the longest skirt.

There ya go! The winner - Dorothea Lambert Chambers
Wimbledon Singles champion: 1903, 1904, 1906, 1910, 1911, 1913, 1914
Singles runner-up: 1905, 1907, 1919, 1920
1903 Wimbledon Ethel Thomson Larcombe 4–6, 6–4, 6–2
1904 Wimbledon (2) Charlotte Cooper Sterry 6–0, 6–3
1906 Wimbledon (3) May Sutton Bundy 6–3, 9–7
1910 Wimbledon (4) Dora Boothby 6–2, 6–2
1911 Wimbledon (5) Dora Boothby 6–0, 6–0 The only such double bagel major final until 1988 Graf-Zvereva
1913 Wimbledon (6) Winifred Slocock McNair 6–0, 6–4
1914 Wimbledon (7) Ethel Thomson Larcombe 7–5, 6–4
Runner-up
1905 Wimbledon May Sutton Bundy 6–3, 6–4
1907 Wimbledon May Sutton Bundy 6–1, 6–4
1919 Wimbledon Suzanne Lenglen 10–8, 4–6, 9–7 longest women's final up to that time 44 games. Chambers was 40 year's old.
1920 Wimbledon Suzanne Lenglen 6–3, 6–0

a couple of years that were her titles for the taking, she was pregnant or recuperating from birth.

Yes she did have some success on red clay events. And here's a truly a relative point of distinction vs Mlle Lenglen. Lenglen's doubles partner of choice over the years was Elizabeth Ryan. Those two never lost a match together. They did however loose exactly two sets in all the matches they did play. Chambers was was part of the team that took those two sets. Larcombe and McCane were the partners. http://www.tennisforum.com/showthrea...=194278&page=2 Oh and she did beat Suzanne in straight sets. the frenchwoman was 14 years old. Evidently when she was 46 years old she traveled accross the pond to play the US championships and wightman Cup. she reached reached the quarters.http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...mbert-Chambers

[Amelie Mauresmo]

I think Martina Navratilova is the greatest of all time and not Steffi Graf. The Monica Seles stabbing really helped Steffi Graf and Arantxa Sanchez Vicario to win more slams when Seles was off the WTA Tour. Martina is the best because she did so well in singles and doubles.
Serena is definitely up there people seem to forget Serena is an incredible doubles player too she's won all the four grand slams and double Olympic gold medalist with Venus.
I think Serena might need to win the French Open ONE MORE TIME to help her legacy. I wish Serena had won the French Open this year.

[NadalAgassi]

Nobody knows for sure what would have happened if Seles were not stabbed. However it is entirely possible Graf would have ended up with a record of say 7 Wimbledons, 4 French Opens, 4 Wimbledons, and 4 U.S Opens, and if she did most would still regard her as best ever, atleast until Serena. Seles was not going to win every Australian, French, and U.S Open for 6 years in a row, sorry but that is crazy to imagine, and she obviously was never going to beat Graf at Wimbledon either. Given that Seles managed 0 slams the last 7+ years of her career (an extremely weak showing even considering her various issues) even giving Seles a projected 6 or 7 slams from 93-January 96 would seem generous, and even that would leave Graf with probably around 4 or 5 of the 7 she won that period, having marginal impact on her totals.

I dont think Navratilova is better in singles. Graf on clay is way better than Navratiova, on hard courts they are closely matched on fast but Graf is way better on slower ones, Navratilova is very lucky the Australian Open was not on rebound ace in her day or she might have won only say once there considering she could only win it 3 times on slower grass, and that a 34 year old Evert walloped her on its first year on the court. Navratilova is only slightly better on grass and carpet. Graf is definitely a superior all surface player to Martina. However Martina probably should rank ahead because of her doubles career, just like Court should for the same reason. Evert should rank ahead of Graf for her longevity and consistency records. So I do still agree Graf is overrated and should not be rated the GOAT like she is by most people.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by Amelie Mauresmo

I think Martina Navratilova is the greatest of all time and not Steffi Graf. The Monica Seles stabbing really helped Steffi Graf and Arantxa Sanchez Vicario to win more slams when Seles was off the WTA Tour. Martina is the best because she did so well in singles and doubles.
Serena is definitely up there people seem to forget Serena is an incredible doubles player too she's won all the four grand slams and double Olympic gold medalist with Venus.
I think Serena might need to win the French Open ONE MORE TIME to help her legacy. I wish Serena had won the French Open this year.

You know both Evert and Martina benefited in their major and tourney counts from the dual injuries of Tracy Austin and Hana Mandlikova which ended Austins career and severly hampered Hana's growth as a competitor. We don't even need to ask how much Jaeger might have been a threat. A generation of competition withered to nothing . If Austin grabs an open or two and Mandlikova wins a couple of grass majors either at wimbledon or australia in the 80's, they come from Martina or Evert, more likely Martina. Is the fact that Seles injury was an intentional act of criminal conduct that distinquishable when the outcome is the same? Fortune and misfortune plays a role in every champion's career. Not just Graf's.

[DMan]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Nobody knows for sure what would have happened if Seles were not stabbed. However it is entirely possible Graf would have ended up with a record of say 7 Wimbledons, 4 French Opens, 4 Wimbledons, and 4 U.S Opens, and if she did most would still regard her as best ever, atleast until Serena. Seles was not going to win every Australian, French, and U.S Open for 6 years in a row, sorry but that is crazy to imagine, and she obviously was never going to beat Graf at Wimbledon either. Given that Seles managed 0 slams the last 7+ years of her career (an extremely weak showing even considering her various issues) even giving Seles a projected 6 or 7 slams from 93-January 96 would seem generous, and even that would leave Graf with probably around 4 or 5 of the 7 she won that period, having marginal impact on her totals.

You don't say. I mean you DON'T say ? ! ? Because that's not what I've read from you before.

And scandalous! How could you possibly state Mons was not going to win every Australian, French, and US Opens for 6 years! She was Mons. She was born, therefore she wins! Have you truly lost your mind?!

[TMF]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Nobody knows for sure what would have happened if Seles were not stabbed. However it is entirely possible Graf would have ended up with a record of say 7 Wimbledons, 4 French Opens, 4 Wimbledons, and 4 U.S Opens, and if she did most would still regard her as best ever, atleast until Serena. Seles was not going to win every Australian, French, and U.S Open for 6 years in a row, sorry but that is crazy to imagine, and she obviously was never going to beat Graf at Wimbledon either. Given that Seles managed 0 slams the last 7+ years of her career (an extremely weak showing even considering her various issues) even giving Seles a projected 6 or 7 slams from 93-January 96 would seem generous, and even that would leave Graf with probably around 4 or 5 of the 7 she won that period, having marginal impact on her totals.

Could you stop including Serena. She's not in the goat conversation(not yet). However, she is in the top 10.

[chatt_town]

No doubt she is clearly a top 5 player. I think Martina was the only one better because she excelled so much and in all 3 different phases(singles, doubles and mixed) and she did it for so long.

Originally Posted by TMF

Could you stop including Serena. She's not in the goat conversation(not yet). However, she is in the top 10.