First Serves Under Pressure

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

We all know how famous Becker was for hitting big serves down break point, coming back from 0-40 etc. Well, krosero & I have tracked many of his matches & turns out he was fairly average at making first serves down break point. I followed his entire career & would have bet good money that he would have a high number of 1st serves made down break points, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Many posters here(& commentators) repeat that about Becker frequently & probably always will. So something that isn't really true is widely accepted as fact, because of our "impressions" of watching matches, with no actual stats.

I think this is everything we have for Becker right now. Listed from best to worst.

1996 ATP Championships final vs Sampras, 4 of 5
1985 W final vs Curren, 4 of 6
1989 Davis Cup vs. Wilander, 2 of 3
1995 W SF vs. Agassi, 9 of 14
1996 YEC round-robin vs. Sampras, 6 of 10
1987 Davis Cup vs. McEnroe, 10 of 17
1995 W final vs. Sampras, 9 of 16
1993 W QF vs. Stich, 5 of 9
1989 USO final vs. Lendl, 6 of 11
1989 Davis Cup vs. Edberg, 1 of 2
1986 W final vs Lendl, 4 of 9
1991 AO final vs Lendl, 5 of 12
1987 Queens final vs Connors, 4 of 10
1985 W SF vs. Leconte, 2 of 5
1993 W SF vs Sampras, 0 of 4
1989 W SF vs. Lendl, 0 of 6

I'd forgotten his '93 Wimby sf, another zero for him.

However, Becker made all of his first serves in the two tiebreakers he won from Agassi at Wimby in '95. I don't know anyone else who's done that.

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

Turns out Sampras wasn't too special in this stat either(from matches tracked)

Here's what we have, again from best to worst.

1999 W final vs Agassi, 4 of 4
1997 GS Cup final vs Rafter, 1 of 1
1995 USO final vs Agassi, 5 of 6
2001 W R16 vs Federer, 10 of 14
1995 Davis Cup final vs Kafelnikov, 5 of 7
1998 USO sf vs Rafter, 4 of 6
1993 W sf vs Becker, 4 of 6
1996 YEC round-robin vs Becker, 2 of 3
2001 USO qf vs Agassi, 2 of 3
1993 W qf vs Agassi, 7 of 11
1996 RG sf vs Kafelnikov, 8 of 13
1996 ATP Championships final vs Becker, 3 of 5
2002 USO final vs Agassi, 6 of 12
1992 RG qf vs Agassi, 5 of 10
1996 AO R32 vs Philippoussis, 2 of 6
1990 USO sf vs McEnroe, 2 of 6
1990 USO final vs Agassi, 1 of 3
1995 AO final vs Agassi, 7 of 21
1995 Davis Cup final vs Chesnokov, 3 of 10

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

Well, just because he wasn't 'mentioned' doesn't mean jack to me. The more matches I track of his the more I realize how clutch he was. The serves he put in down break points in the '81 W final were ridiculous(not aces which leave more of an 'impression' on viewers, but virtual unreturnables. some of the most impressive serving I've seen in a Wimbledon final, esp considering the circumstances)

I think that could be the most clutch serving performance of all time, in all seriousness. Statistically Borg and Del Potro are slightly ahead but the first serves that Mac put in were ridiculous.

And Mac missed only 1 first serve in the tiebreaks.

All of that was actually reported by Sports Illustrated. You're right that the stat is almost never mentioned, though. I don't know of any time this stat was calculated before SI's report in '81. And for years afterward there was nothing.

That's a testament to McEnroe's serving performance in that Wimbledon final -- that SI made a point of reporting what he did on break points and in the tiebreaks.

In a way it's an indirect compliment to Borg, because that's what it took to beat him, a ridiculously clutch serving performance.

You could almost say the same of 1980: Borg had to put in 12 of 13 first serves to beat McEnroe that day.

What a great pair of matches that was. These stats show how deeply keyed in Borg and Mac were.

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

how many 1st serves did Wilander make when down break point in that match?

14 of 18 compared to Lendl's 2 of 10.

The year before, when Lendl won, it was the reverse: Lendl went 10 of 18, Wilander only 7 of 14.

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

I have more stats on this from some Federer matches. I think he's pretty good at making 1st serves down break point.

When he beat Sampras at Wimbledon he put in 9 of 11.

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

Navratilova had such a high serve % in many of her major finals, I would guess she had high numbers in this category as well.

Maybe the best we have is 4 of 4 in the '87 Wimby semifinal vs Evert. Chris went 11 of 13 herself.

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

Isner made 1st serves on 11 of 12 break points vs Fed in Davis Cup.

That almost ties Borg and Del Potro, and for all intents and purposes it's just as good.

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

Lendl went 1 for 8 in '91 AO final

That had to hurt him. He also went 2 of 7 in the '83 Wimby semis vs Mac. Lendl's numbers in this stat seem almost as poor as Becker's.

Maybe the most "clutch" serving I've seen from Lendl was in the first-set tiebreak of the '85 USO final (vs Mac). In that tb he put in 4 of 4 first serves and suffered no mini-breaks. Mac put in 2 of 4.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by kiki

Bill Tilden´s serve has been severely underrated, probably due to little general knowledge about his game.But he patented the cannonball and had amazing 5 of first serves in.

BTW, wasn´t him who said that a player is as good as his second serve?

Against Lacoste in the '27 French Championships, Tilden was serving at 4-5 in the fifth set. Match game against him. He held at love with 4 straight first serves, the last three of them clean aces.

That was on clay, at St. Cloud.

I think the statement about the second serve was Kramer's.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

I think I can correctly guess who you were going to write about.

No comment.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

No comment.

None needed.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by krosero

Against Lacoste in the '27 French Championships, Tilden was serving at 4-5 in the fifth set. Match game against him. He held at love with 4 straight first serves, the last three of them clean aces.

That was on clay, at St. Cloud.

I think the statement about the second serve was Kramer's.

Delete message. Dumb mistake.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by krosero

Against Lacoste in the '27 French Championships, Tilden was serving at 4-5 in the fifth set. Match game against him. He held at love with 4 straight first serves, the last three of them clean aces.

That was on clay, at St. Cloud.

I think the statement about the second serve was Kramer's.

I also thought it, after a second thought.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

We all know how famous Becker was for hitting big serves down break point, coming back from 0-40 etc. Well, krosero & I have tracked many of his matches & turns out he was fairly average at making first serves down break point. I followed his entire career & would have bet good money that he would have a high number of 1st serves made down break points, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Many posters here(& commentators) repeat that about Becker frequently & probably always will. So something that isn't really true is widely accepted as fact, because of our "impressions" of watching matches, with no actual stats.

Just wondering if a high ball toss might be a factor in the low service % on break points by Becker or Sampras -- and especially Lendl.

I think one reason Becker and Lendl played best indoors was that there was no wind or sun to throw off their ball toss.

[abmk]

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

We all know how famous Becker was for hitting big serves down break point, coming back from 0-40 etc. Well, krosero & I have tracked many of his matches & turns out he was fairly average at making first serves down break point. I followed his entire career & would have bet good money that he would have a high number of 1st serves made down break points, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Many posters here(& commentators) repeat that about Becker frequently & probably always will. So something that isn't really true is widely accepted as fact, because of our "impressions" of watching matches, with no actual stats.

agreed ... From the becker matches I've watched, I never got the impression that he had a high % of first serves in when in trouble ...gets quite a bit over-rated in that aspect IMO ...

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

Well, just because he wasn't 'mentioned' doesn't mean jack to me. The more matches I track of his the more I realize how clutch he was. The serves he put in down break points in the '81 W final were ridiculous(not aces which leave more of an 'impression' on viewers, but virtual unreturnables. some of the most impressive serving I've seen in a Wimbledon final, esp considering the circumstances)
I see you frequently argue in GOAT debates that former players aren't historians and we should take their opinions with a grain of salt. I sort of feel the same thing here. They aren't statisticians, so their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.
I know you'll probably never do it, but taking stats can really make you see things about players you would never notice otherwise. Stats don't tell everything, but certainly do add to the experience.

true, mac is quite under-rated in this aspect ...

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

I have more stats on this from some Federer matches. I think he's pretty good at making 1st serves down break point.

true, he's right up there in the top echelon in that aspect ...

[Moose Malloy]

That had to hurt him. He also went 2 of 7 in the '83 Wimby semis vs Mac. Lendl's numbers in this stat seem almost as poor as Becker's.

Lendl made 1st serves on 9 of 10 break points vs Tanner at '83 Wimbledon. And he served a 2nd serve ace after the only 1st serve he missed down break point. Wasn't broken in the match.

some others
Mac 12 of 15 vs Sanchez at '90 USO
Kuerten 6 of 7 vs Agassi at '00 Masters Cup, 8 of 10 vs Sampras at same event

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

Lendl made 1st serves on 9 of 10 break points vs Tanner at '83 Wimbledon. And he served a 2nd serve ace after the only 1st serve he missed down break point. Wasn't broken in the match.

I'll add it to the list. I've always been surprised at how well Lendl played in this match, considering this was still a couple of years before his peak years. And this was on grass. We all think of Lendl as becoming a good grasscourter only after he hired Roche in '85, but everything he did in this Tanner match was off the charts.

Served at 75%. Not broken once. Served 11 aces, including 3 on second serve. Won 78 of 116 at net, per your count (67%), coming in behind all his serves. You counted just 5 unforced errors by him, with none in the long first set.

In the last game of the first set Tanner pushed him to 7 deuces but Lendl made 17 of 20 first serves (85%). And as Tanner said, "‘He didn’t just put the first one in. He hit it.’’

Tanner kept hitting winners in that game, which he was definitely capable of doing when he was dialed in. But he ended up 0 for 10 on break point conversion. That's the lowest mark I can recall seeing anywhere.

Now that stat makes more sense. On 10 break points, Tanner got to see a second serve only once -- and he couldn't even get his racquet on it.

Question for Moose or anyone else: do you know of any break point conversion lower than Tanner's 0-for-10?

[krosero]

BTW, how many 1st serves did Tanner put in on break point?

[kiki]

Originally Posted by krosero

I'll add it to the list. I've always been surprised at how well Lendl played in this match, considering this was still a couple of years before his peak years. And this was on grass. We all think of Lendl as becoming a good grasscourter only after he hired Roche in '85, but everything he did in this Tanner match was off the charts.

Served at 75%. Not broken once. Served 11 aces, including 3 on second serve. Won 78 of 116 at net, per your count (67%), coming in behind all his serves. You counted just 5 unforced errors by him, with none in the long first set.

In the last game of the first set Tanner pushed him to 7 deuces but Lendl made 17 of 20 first serves (85%). And as Tanner said, "‘He didn’t just put the first one in. He hit it.’’

Tanner kept hitting winners in that game, which he was definitely capable of doing when he was dialed in. But he ended up 0 for 10 on break point conversion. That's the lowest mark I can recall seeing anywhere.

Now that stat makes more sense. On 10 break points, Tanner got to see a second serve only once -- and he couldn't even get his racquet on it.

Question for Moose or anyone else: do you know of any break point conversion lower than Tanner's 0-for-10?

Tanner had just beaten Wilander in the former round, right? I think it was the last time the big serving form tennesse made it to the quarterfinals at a gran Slam event.He was quite out of his prime ( 1974-1981), but still able to put up an upset or two on fast grass.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by kiki

Tanner had just beaten Wilander in the former round, right? I think it was the last time the big serving form tennesse made it to the quarterfinals at a gran Slam event.He was quite out of his prime ( 1974-1981), but still able to put up an upset or two on fast grass.

Yup he beat Wilander in the third round, in four sets. HBO said he served 16 aces, though some newspapers reported 23.

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

Chang made 1st serves on 15 of the 17 break points he faced in the last 2 sets in the '89 FO final. Will try to get complete stats.

Great stat by Chang; and he got broken only twice in that stretch.

Another partial one: in the last 2 sets of the '73 USO final you've got Kodes making his first serve on all 6 break points that he faced -- however he got broken on 3 of those.

[Moose Malloy]

Question for Moose or anyone else: do you know of any break point conversion lower than Tanner's 0-for-10?

found this thread, a WTA player had a 0-16 match at the Australian Open this year.

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthrea...=443536&page=3

BTW, how many 1st serves did Tanner put in on break point?

didn't check that.

[krosero]

As noted above, I haven't seen the stat for 1st serves on break points before 1981. But before the Open Era there were occasionally vague references like these, reported in the Sydney Morning Herald the day after the Hoad-Trabert classic of '53 (Davis Cup Challenge Round):

"Hoad served 11 aces to Trabert’s six. Many of these powerful services came at game-saving points."

"During the match [Hoad] saved nine game points, mainly with aces or strong serves."

Hoad saved 9 of 12 break points in all, per the Herald -- saving all 7 break points that he faced in the first two sets, both of which he won.

The "aces or strong serves" that Hoad put in on break points could have been second serves, but obviously they were more likely to be first serves.

Impossible to know for sure unless the full match turns up somewhere.

[krosero]

"Hoad served 11 aces to Trabert’s six. Many of these powerful services came at game-saving points."

"During the match [Hoad] saved nine game points, mainly with aces or strong serves."

These statements in the Sydney Morning Herald seem to be exaggerated, actually. Checking the details of the reports in the Herald, none of Trabert's aces occurred on break points. Four of Hoad's aces, at most, occurred on break point, and possibly only two.

But those two were critical. Serving for a two-set lead, Hoad fell behind 15-40, and put in two clean aces. Two points later he took the set 6-3.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

Lendl made 1st serves on 9 of 10 break points vs Tanner at '83 Wimbledon.

Lendl had a perfect 6 for 6 on break points against Connors, 1987 USO. That's the highest numbers we have in a "perfect" performance.

Connors went 8 of 16 in that match.

At 5-4 in the first set Lendl got out of love-40 by making big first serves on all four break points he faced.

In their '85 USO semi, Lendl went 2 of 3, Connors 6 of 8.

[krosero]

In their '92 USO match in second round:

Lendl made his 1st serve on 4 of 6 breakers, Connors on 8 of 12.

[krosero]

I now have Borg's numbers in all his Wimbledon finals.

1976 vs Nastase, Borg made his first serve on 10 of 12 break points
1977 vs Connors, on 12 of 14
1978 vs Connors, on 4 of 7
1979 vs Tanner, on 7 of 9
1980 vs McEnroe, on 12 of 13

The numbers for 1977 and 1980 are the best, and those were his five-setters against his two great rivals.

In '77 he avoided falling behind a set and a break by saving 4 break points in one game, making big first serves on all 4 and drawing 3 service winners/aces.

In '80 he prevented McEnroe from serving for a two-set lead by saving 3 break points with 3 service winners.

Borg's clutchness on break points may have been one of the key reasons that he was able to win 5 Wimbledons in a row.

He had poorer numbers in the '81 final, in which McEnroe finally beat him. In that match Borg faced 15 break points and made his first serve on, at most, 10 of them, probably a little less than that.


And poorer than all of these were his numbers in his USO finals:

1976 vs Connors, made his first serve on 10 of 15 break points (note, this year was on clay and Borg was rolling his serve a lot)

1980 vs McEnroe, on 3 of 13

1981 vs McEnroe, on 5 of 13

[SusanDK]

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

We all know how famous Becker was for hitting big serves down break point, coming back from 0-40 etc. Well, krosero & I have tracked many of his matches & turns out he was fairly average at making first serves down break point. I followed his entire career & would have bet good money that he would have a high number of 1st serves made down break points, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Many posters here(& commentators) repeat that about Becker frequently & probably always will. So something that isn't really true is widely accepted as fact, because of our "impressions" of watching matches, with no actual stats.

I'm guilty of this one. I always recalled Becker being an exceptional clutch server. Is it possible that he converted a high number of second serves as well? So instead of just looking at first serves under pressure, I wonder what his stats are in terms of points made on serve when break point down.

Or perhaps he was particularly good when down break point in the most tense and critical situations, which gave the impression of him being a great clutch server. For example, converting a break point at 1-2 in the second set is not nearly as critical as doing so at 4-5 in the fourth.