The Premature Celebration Hindrance Call

[Sumo]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I have played with Vietnamese guys and they don't shout like that.

Well then the guy playing in Vietnam must be wrong.
Thank you for clearing that up and making us all better people.

[beernutz]

Originally Posted by Sumo

Well then the guy playing in Vietnam must be wrong.
Thank you for clearing that up and making us all better people.

LOLOL, well played sir.

[leroy_sunset]

I called a hindrance on an opponent in my Friday match. She kept yelling out "short" to warn her partner that I was going to smash her weak lobs. When I called it she flipped, and said "I'm allowed to talk until the ball crosses the net and is on your side of the court." Bzzzz, wrong. I ended up calling it a 'warning' and we played on, even though there are no warnings with hindrances. She would not relent her incorrect position, and we still had a lot of tennis to play. Not worth it for a mixed doubles match.

She did it at least 3 more times that match, albeit quiter (which irked me) but I did not consider it loud enough to hinder. After we won, I showed her partner The Code entry and asked him to inform her on his own time.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by leroy_sunset

I called a hindrance on an opponent in my Friday match. She kept yelling out "short" to warn her partner that I was going to smash her weak lobs. When I called it she flipped, and said "I'm allowed to talk until the ball crosses the net and is on your side of the court." Bzzzz, wrong. I ended up calling it a 'warning' and we played on, even though there are no warnings with hindrances. She would not relent her incorrect position, and we still had a lot of tennis to play. Not worth it for a mixed doubles match.

She did it at least 3 more times that match, albeit quiter (which irked me) but I did not consider it loud enough to hinder. After we won, I showed her partner The Code entry and asked him to inform her on his own time.

But . . . *why* did you call her on it?

Were you genuinely hindered? Did you start lining up your shot and then not play the ball? If you didn't play the smash, how could you chalk it up to being a warning? If you call a hindrance, then the point is over and it is your point.

Are you so distractable that the rather common event of someone warning of an impending smash that it could make you miss?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Sumo

Well then the guy playing in Vietnam must be wrong.
Thank you for clearing that up and making us all better people.

Yeah I have played in a place which has the largest population of Vietnamese outside Vietnam so it is not like I don't know

[gmatheis]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

But . . . *why* did you call her on it?

Were you genuinely hindered? Did you start lining up your shot and then not play the ball? If you didn't play the smash, how could you chalk it up to being a warning? If you call a hindrance, then the point is over and it is your point.

Are you so distractable that the rather common event of someone warning of an impending smash that it could make you miss?

Everything that happens distracts you to some point as your brain processes what it was that you heard and then decides how to respond (even ignoring it is a response). Any distraction no matter how small may be just enough to make you not concentrate enough on your shot so that you end up missing.

The rules say you are not allowed to talk while the ball is heading towards your opponent , if you do and they hear it they are within their rights to call a hinderance. It doesn't matter how loud you said what ever it was. The fact that you said it and they heard it means they were distracted to some degree.

[Sumo]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Yeah I have played in a place which has the largest population of Vietnamese outside Vietnam so it is not like I don't know

Exactly.
You're clearly the expert. Why do you think I thanked you?

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by gmatheis

Everything that happens distracts you to some point as your brain processes what it was that you heard and then decides how to respond (even ignoring it is a response). Any distraction no matter how small may be just enough to make you not concentrate enough on your shot so that you end up missing.

The rules say you are not allowed to talk while the ball is heading towards your opponent , if you do and they hear it they are within their rights to call a hinderance. It doesn't matter how loud you said what ever it was. The fact that you said it and they heard it means they were distracted to some degree.

I don't dispute what you say or what the rule is.

What I can say that I have played a bucket-load of USTA matches, and a lot of people talk/yell when they are supposed to be quiet. Yet I've never called a hindrance before and have never been called for one.

What that says to me is that players are not in fact as easily distractable as you suggest.

I guess what I am saying is that a player who claims a point due to hindrance if their opponent says something legitimate should be quite clear in their own mind that they were in fact hindered. I sensed in some of the posts that folks were calling hindrance due merely to the fact that the opponents talked and not necessarily because they were hindered by the talking.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Sumo

Exactly.
You're clearly the expert. Why do you think I thanked you?

OK I got the sarcasm the first time.........

[MrCLEAN]

I've only called one, and even then I didn't take the point, but it wasn't for a celebration. I played a guy at a tournament once, and he started getting into the habit of cursing every time he gave me a sitter and I was about to put it away. He'd hit it short, I'd run up and get set, and right when I started my forward swin(2HIT!!!)g.... you get the idea. He was pretty loud w/ it. The first one I framed because I lost concentration, but just let it go. The next time, I missed another one and told him he had to stop yelling when I was about to put away a short ball. I didn't take the point, though I could have, and he was quiet the rest of the match (3 and 0 to me as I recall)

I tried to call one on myself today actually. In the middle of a rally, I hit a backhand that I just KNEW was going in the net, and before I could stop myself, I let out a lighthearted growl. The ball cleared the net cleanly (by about a 1/4 inch), went in, and we had about 3 more shots each, but I gained control of the point on the shot that I yelled on, and won the point w/ a winner. I immediately apologized for the yell, and offered him the point, but he wouldn't take it, then I offered to replay the point, which he also refused. He ended up winning 4 and 4, so it worked out for him

[dizzlmcwizzl]

In districts two years ago I unwittingly initiated a hindrance call. The opponents hit a short lob that I was about to hit. The lobee yelled very loudly to warn his partner. I genuinely was distracted and missed the the overhead ... however, I know that after missing the shot it could no longer be considered a hindrance.

I knew I could not have two bites at the apple but, I asked the guy not to yell mid point in the future. This fellow got quite upset, and was certain that he was allowed to warn his partner and called the referee over. He was surprised to to learn that he could not yell in this instance. Furthermore the ref had heard this commotion but was uncertain which court it had come from... it was quite a loud warning ... When he learned it was from our opponents during play he awarded us the point, despite my admittance that I had missed the ball.

This is the only time I have ever "called" or had called a hindrance on my court.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl

In districts two years ago I unwittingly initiated a hindrance call. The opponents hit a short lob that I was about to hit. The lobee yelled very loudly to warn his partner. I genuinely was distracted and missed the the overhead ... however, I know that after missing the shot it could no longer be considered a hindrance.

I knew I could not have two bites at the apple but, I asked the guy not to yell mid point in the future. This fellow got quite upset, and was certain that he was allowed to warn his partner and called the referee over. He was surprised to to learn that he could not yell in this instance. Furthermore the ref had heard this commotion but was uncertain which court it had come from... it was quite a loud warning ... When he learned it was from our opponents during play he awarded us the point, despite my admittance that I had missed the ball.

This is the only time I have ever "called" or had called a hindrance on my court.

Sounds like the official blew it.

I have a similar story from 2011 nationals involving my teammates.

We were playing the finals at Nationals for 3.5 seniors. We had won one court and lost another, so it all came down to Court Three. Which was in a 10-point tiebreak, with our gals down 5-6.

In the middle of a point, opponents lobbed our net player. Her partner ran down the lob, hit it back and then shouted to her partner, "Stay, Kelly!" The opponent then missed the shot and appealed to the official stationed at the net. (Honestly, yell was well before she hit the ball, but I would guess the opponent would claim otherwise).

The official said to replay the point. Which we lost. So instead of 6-6, it was 5-7. We then went on to lose that tiebreak. Ouch.

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Sounds like the official blew it.

I have a similar story from 2011 nationals involving my teammates.

We were playing the finals at Nationals for 3.5 seniors. We had won one court and lost another, so it all came down to Court Three. Which was in a 10-point tiebreak, with our gals down 5-6.

In the middle of a point, opponents lobbed our net player. Her partner ran down the lob, hit it back and then shouted to her partner, "Stay, Kelly!" The opponent then missed the shot and appealed to the official stationed at the net. (Honestly, yell was well before she hit the ball, but I would guess the opponent would claim otherwise).

The official said to replay the point. Which we lost. So instead of 6-6, it was 5-7. We then went on to lose that tiebreak. Ouch.

If she had not played the ball, it wouldnt be a "let" and would be a loss of point. Normally these types of outbursts are declared "intentional" and therefore loss of point. The official must have ruled it "unintentional" and therefore a replay.

This is a prime example of "you cannot have two chances to win a point".

For unintentional hindrances its a let.
For intentional hindrances, its a loss of point.

Originally Posted by beernutz

From all this discussion it appears I'm probably in the minority of players who have never called a hindrance in league play. I've been playing USTA and our local league regularly since 2005 and have yet to call a hindrance on an opponent in either doubles or singles. In fact I don't think I've even warned an opponent who I thought was exhibiting questionable behavior that what they were doing (e.g. yelling while the ball was headed towards us) might be construed as a hindrance. I have however discussed it with a doubles partner when I thought their actions might be considered a hindrance by the other team. The flip side of that coin is that I've also never had an opponent call a hindrance on me or my partner either.

I've never called a hindrance on anyone. I dont think there are too many hindrance (due to yelling) in singles in rec tennis. I'm going to say most, if not all hindrance calls are going to be in doubles, usually by a player trying to communicate to their partner at the net.

It's a terrible habit to do that anyway. The one time someone calls you on it is going to be the one time you cant afford to lose the point because of something silly.

Yelling "Watchout!" is just as much of a bad idea as "catching" a ball that's going long. I've seen it before, and im sure ill see it again, where a player catches a ball with their racket (or hand) that's clearly going long causing a loss of point.

Some things are just not good to "practice" even in practice.

[Cindysphinx]

FWIW, NTRPolice, I disagree that it is a bad idea to warn your partner of a short lob.

I have had partners explicitly ask me to warn them of short lobs. I give the warning if I think of it, and I appreciate it when they do it for me.

Yes, giving a warning runs the microscopic risk that some opponent someday might claim hindrance and claim the point. Failing to give a warning, however, risks that (1) your net player will be surprised by a short lob, and (2) that partner will dislike playing with you because you throw up short lobs but won't warn.

I think if we took a show of hands of how many people here have ever had an opponent claim hindrance if they say "Short" or "Watch it" or "Watch out" when they hit a short lob, very few people would say this happens.

I think it happens even less at the higher levels because players know that giving a warning is quite common.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Well, it finally happened. I called a hindrance and claimed the point. That hasn't happened to me in seven years of USTA play.

The opponent (mixed dubs) was a lady I know well. She is, erm, exuberant on the court. She celebrates her own winners with gusto. She laments errors loudly. Many people, including her partners, find this bothersome. When she was my teammate, some ladies objected to playing with her because they didn't like it (especially the outbursts following their errors).

So. We were in the middle of the first set. I hit a shot and approached the net. She popped the ball over my male partner's head, and he leapt but couldn't reach it. I took off running and caught up with the ball.

As I was still running and getting ready to hit a FH lob, I heard all this celebrating and carrying on from my female opponent. This hollering was nothing in particular (she wasn't doing anything legitimate like warning her partner to back away from an impending smash). No, she was doing war whoops, loud enough for me to hear in a noisy bubble.

I yelled "HINDRANCE!" and stopped the point. My female opponent and her partner were apologetic, but I really felt the celebration was over the top while I was lining up my shot. Knowing how she plays, I felt I needed to put a stop to it. She remained quiet for the rest of the match.

Anybody else ever claim hindrance for a premature celebration?

I want to hear an update when you see her next.

[Mike Y]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

FWIW, NTRPolice, I disagree that it is a bad idea to warn your partner of a short lob.

I have had partners explicitly ask me to warn them of short lobs. I give the warning if I think of it, and I appreciate it when they do it for me.

Yes, giving a warning runs the microscopic risk that some opponent someday might claim hindrance and claim the point. Failing to give a warning, however, risks that (1) your net player will be surprised by a short lob, and (2) that partner will dislike playing with you because you throw up short lobs but won't warn.

I think if we took a show of hands of how many people here have ever had an opponent claim hindrance if they say "Short" or "Watch it" or "Watch out" when they hit a short lob, very few people would say this happens.

I think it happens even less at the higher levels because players know that giving a warning is quite common.

I see this a lot in the lower levels and in Mixed, but I see it less often at the higher levels. But I don't understand why it is necessary to warn your partner of a short lob. If you are not looking back at your partner to see where they are hitting the ball, then it is like if you are at a baseball game and you are trying to see if a fly ball is going to be a home run. Watch the outfielder. Or in this case, watch the net person. If you see them running forward and winding up to hit an overhead, then you should probably protect yourself or turn around. You don't have to worry about the "fake double-play", or fake overhead, in tennis.

[NJ1]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I think it happens even less at the higher levels.

Quoted for truth. The lower the level the more of an obsession with minutiae.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Mike Y

I see this a lot in the lower levels and in Mixed, but I see it less often at the higher levels. But I don't understand why it is necessary to warn your partner of a short lob. If you are not looking back at your partner to see where they are hitting the ball, then it is like if you are at a baseball game and you are trying to see if a fly ball is going to be a home run. Watch the outfielder. Or in this case, watch the net person. If you see them running forward and winding up to hit an overhead, then you should probably protect yourself or turn around. You don't have to worry about the "fake double-play", or fake overhead, in tennis.

Meh.

I understand why folks want to be warned. If I hit a bad lob from the baseline, there will be a moment or two when I know I have hit a bad lob but my partner does not.

Yes, my partner can react to the overhead set-up of the opposing net player, but that set-up will happen a few moments after the ball leaves my racket.

When a smash is coming, a few moments matters.

[gmatheis]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

FWIW, NTRPolice, I disagree that it is a bad idea to warn your partner of a short lob.

I have had partners explicitly ask me to warn them of short lobs. I give the warning if I think of it, and I appreciate it when they do it for me.

Yes, giving a warning runs the microscopic risk that some opponent someday might claim hindrance and claim the point. Failing to give a warning, however, risks that (1) your net player will be surprised by a short lob, and (2) that partner will dislike playing with you because you throw up short lobs but won't warn.

I think if we took a show of hands of how many people here have ever had an opponent claim hindrance if they say "Short" or "Watch it" or "Watch out" when they hit a short lob, very few people would say this happens.

I think it happens even less at the higher levels because players know that giving a warning is quite common.

Actually the reason it happens less at higher levels is because people actually follow the rules which say you are not allowed to talk while the ball is traveling towards your opponent ... i dont care how innocent you think it is, the rules say not to do it and every time you do you are breaking the rules whether you get called on it or not.

Also at higher levels people know what's going on and don't need such warnings.

[Mike Y]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Meh.

I understand why folks want to be warned. If I hit a bad lob from the baseline, there will be a moment or two when I know I have hit a bad lob but my partner does not.

Yes, my partner can react to the overhead set-up of the opposing net player, but that set-up will happen a few moments after the ball leaves my racket.

When a smash is coming, a few moments matters.

I disagree that warning would give you a few extra moments if you know what to look for. The net person moving into position and hearing the warning are at worst instantaneous, and the net person likely starts to move into position first. In fact, I will often hear someone give a warning in response to the net person moving into position.

It is probably a habit you would want to get out of. Giving warning of bad lobs exposes your team to possible hindrance calls against you. You say that your partner likes to hear the warnings, but it is against the rules. It is like if your partner says they like to foot fault and then just letting them do so.