GOAT Discussions

[tomwill65]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Mustard, I must strongly contradict. Rosewall was clearly the best amateur in the second half of 1956: He won the US Championships over Hoad, he won many tournaments, twice beating Hoad in Australia while Hoad could not beat Rosewall. Muscles won eight tournaments in that period and Hoad won two.

Of course if we consider the whole year Hoad was better. But we discuss the actual strength when Rosewall turned pro.

Lew Hoad struggled in the latter part of 1956 he had to pull out of NSW championships with injury however made a big effort to play in the Davis Cup, playing superlative tennis. Harry Hopman said he would have beaten anyone in the World.TomWill

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by tomwill65

Lew Hoad struggled in the latter part of 1956 he had to pull out of NSW championships with injury however made a big effort to play in the Davis Cup, playing superlative tennis. Harry Hopman said he would have beaten anyone in the World.TomWill

I concede that in the Davis Cup Hoad was even better than Rosewall.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Dan, every good researcher knows that Rosewall dominated all months after Wimbledon. Look Sutter's book!

The ratings are made for the year AS A WHOLE, not for some fraction of the year. Of course, players can get hot for a period of time, but ratings take everything into account, ALL tournaments, especially the majors. Rosewall hurt his own rating by skipping the clay season, which Hoad swept.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by ARFED

Well, after reading some of your posts i will grant you this....you are at most a seventh tier expert

hahahah¡ I´d like to know what is your full life rock and roll experience¡¡¡

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

The ratings are made for the year AS A WHOLE, not for some fraction of the year. Of course, players can get hot for a period of time, but ratings take everything into account, ALL tournaments, especially the majors. Rosewall hurt his own rating by skipping the clay season, which Hoad swept.

Hoad skipped the summer clay season when Rosewall won many tournaments.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

Bobbyone,

TMF is a spoiled child that, once he discovers the world is not pinky pink as he had imagined, and there was life, and much more exciting life in times he can only dream of, he gets angry and frustrated.He will eventually mature and laugh at his own former opinions, just as we had to go through that some time in our lifes.

Thanks anyhow for your support.We may disagree, but at least share some basis.

kiki, Any poster who admires Laver and Rosewall, is my friend....

I think we only disagree regarding Vines/Kodes and regarding Nüsslein and Kozeluh...

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Hoad skipped the summer clay season when Rosewall won many tournaments.

No, he didn't. He won the Toronto Invitational ON CLAY in August, the principal CLAY warmup to Forest Hills, beating Davidson in a four-set final.
I think he skipped the Eastern Grasscourts.
On the year AS A WHOLE, there is no contest.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

No, he didn't. He won the Toronto Invitational ON CLAY in August, the principal CLAY warmup to Forest Hills, beating Davidson in a four-set final.
I think he skipped the Eastern Grasscourts.
On the year AS A WHOLE, there is no contest.

Dan, I never doubt that Hoad was 1956 best amateur. But I still say that after Wimbledon Rosewall was clearly the No.1.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Dan, I never doubt that Hoad was 1956 best amateur. But I still say that after Wimbledon Rosewall was clearly the No.1.

Yes, of course, because Hoad's back problem flared up right after Wimbledon, and by the following spring he was put in a body cast for six weeks. It was good that Rosewall turned pro in his place, because it took Hoad until Wimbledon 1957 to recover. He even lost to Drobny at Queens Club 1957, still not back in business.

[Prisoner of Birth]

Originally Posted by kiki

Fed is a definitely third tier and very possibly second tier, I do not understand that you call me a detractor when I have him in such high esteem

LOL, make up your mind, Kiki.

[ARFED]

Originally Posted by kiki

hahahah¡ I´d like to know what is your full life rock and roll experience¡¡¡

Well to start, i have actually picked up a racquet, you know that strange thing with the strings and frame

[TMF]

Originally Posted by ARFED

Well, after reading some of your posts i will grant you this....you are at most a seventh tier expert

It's pointless in trying to reason with him. He even gets all panties in a bunch just because the experts rated FEderer ahead of of everyone.

[ARFED]

Originally Posted by TMF

It's pointless in trying to reason with him. He even gets all panties in a bunch just because the experts rated FEderer ahead of of everyone.

Well in my opinion they rank about equal, along with Gonzalez, the difference between eras and the amount of success of this 3 makes it impossible for me to separate them, but to call Fed an all time tier 3 goat (when he is clearly the GOAT of the open era) is just plain dumb. However, I do hope that he is trolling

[TMF]

Originally Posted by ARFED

Well in my opinion they rank about equal, along with Gonzalez, the difference between eras and the amount of success of this 3 makes it impossible for me to separate them, but to call Fed an all time tier 3 goat (when he is clearly the GOAT of the open era) is just plain dumb. However, I do hope that he is trolling

That's exactly what I mean. It's like saying Graf is a 3rd tier great. YOu know that it's impossible to reason with him.

Is he trolling I'm not sure anymore. Maybe everything he said are exactly what he believe. LOL

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by ARFED

Well in my opinion they rank about equal, along with Gonzalez, the difference between eras and the amount of success of this 3 makes it impossible for me to separate them, but to call Fed an all time tier 3 goat (when he is clearly the GOAT of the open era) is just plain dumb. However, I do hope that he is trolling

ARFED, Borg and Sampras are also GOAT candidates for open era. Federer is not clearly the GOAT of the open era.

[NadalDramaQueen]

Originally Posted by pc1

Hoodjem,

I do think a lot of the GOAT discussions don't take into account the changing values of what is important in the tennis world and how superior a player is compared to his contemporaries. Even then I wonder if some subjectivity should be taken into account on whether the player may have had some stroke deficiencies. The formula for simply counting majors to analyze greatness is greatly flawed to me in an infinite amount of ways.

For example Bill Tilden is arguably the most dominant player of all time but he is behind in majors to a number of players. Is he an inferior player to them? Perhaps or perhaps not.

We don't have enough stats about the past in tennis unlike baseball in which we can compared teams on winning percentage or run differential among other things. People like Joe McCauley, Andrew Tas and Robert Geist has helped us tremendously in this area and hopefully we can get more information in the future.

May not be able to post for a while because a huge hurricane is coming my way and power may be out for more than a week.

Hey pc1,

I hope you made it through the storm in one piece.

[forzamilan90]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

ARFED, Borg and Sampras are also GOAT candidates for open era. Federer is not clearly the GOAT of the open era.

This is where TMF makes his obligatory post where Federer owns or is near the top at most significant records of the Open Era....Federer is by far the most accomplished and balanced player of the Open Era.

[ARFED]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

ARFED, Borg and Sampras are also GOAT candidates for open era. Federer is not clearly the GOAT of the open era.

You funny, funny guy......

[TMF]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

ARFED, Borg and Sampras are also GOAT candidates for open era. Federer is not clearly the GOAT of the open era.

Nadal is some distance behind Federer, and many have put Nadal above Borg. No way Borg is in the same league as Federer. And Sampras doesn't have a leg to stand on when comparing to Federer.

Learn tennis !

[TMF]

Originally Posted by forzamilan90

This is where TMF makes his obligatory post where Federer owns or is near the top at most significant records of the Open Era....Federer is by far the most accomplished and balanced player of the Open Era.

Some of the old-timers like bobby don't watch modern tennis so they wouldn't know.