The Premature Celebration Hindrance Call

[dcdoorknob]

Yeah I never really understood the need to warn or desire to be warned about short lobs. If my partner hits a short lob, I can typically figure it out without much problem or delay and without any verbal help from my partner.

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

FWIW, NTRPolice, I disagree that it is a bad idea to warn your partner of a short lob.

I have had partners explicitly ask me to warn them of short lobs. I give the warning if I think of it, and I appreciate it when they do it for me.

Yes, giving a warning runs the microscopic risk that some opponent someday might claim hindrance and claim the point. Failing to give a warning, however, risks that (1) your net player will be surprised by a short lob, and (2) that partner will dislike playing with you because you throw up short lobs but won't warn.

I think if we took a show of hands of how many people here have ever had an opponent claim hindrance if they say "Short" or "Watch it" or "Watch out" when they hit a short lob, very few people would say this happens.

I think it happens even less at the higher levels because players know that giving a warning is quite common.

As others have said, there isnt really a reason to have to "warn" your partner unless they're an absolute beginner or have not developed the common sense part of their game yet...

Most of the time you'll be looking at the net player, so you can see when they start to "load" for that overhead. If they're standing a ft. from the net while they "load" then you know that lob is really short and should probably turn around so you dont get hit in the face (lol).

If you're looking backwards, you were probably looking back for a line call if the ball looks like its close. In these cases, you can tell what shot your partner is hitting because you'll see them at about the same time you see the ball.

The only other time I can think of when im looking backwards is when I hear the impact of the ball, but I dont see the ball go past me in a reasonable amount of time. In these cases, ill take a look back to see what the problem is. Usually this is a "decent" lob so ill start backing up a little.




It happens less at higher levels because people know its against the rules, people will call it when its "most convenient", people can and will bean you out of spite (or even for fun) if you're yelling in their take backs, and your net player probably isnt some type of moron.

[leroy_sunset]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

But . . . *why* did you call her on it?

Were you genuinely hindered? Did you start lining up your shot and then not play the ball? If you didn't play the smash, how could you chalk it up to being a warning? If you call a hindrance, then the point is over and it is your point.

Yes, it did hinder me. It was probably the 6th time so far in the match she had done so, she said it loudly, and it threw me off. I was hindered. I was in the middle of my wind-up motion when she called out. I did swing at the ball, but I guess the best way to describe it was that I called out "hey!" as I swung the racquet. I hit the overhead into the net, about half speed. I approached the net as a follow-through of moving forward for the smash and said "I'm calling that a hindrance."

She could have argued that I played the overhead and was too late to call it. That would have been a reasonable position to take, but I genuinely wasn't trying for a "second shot" at the point. But she never even said anything like that. It was clear I objected before I hit the ball. She stated a false rule. And I submit that any USTA official would have called that a hindrance if present. I admit hitting the ball at all was a bad idea.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Are you so distractable that the rather common event of someone warning of an impending smash that it could make you miss?

Ya, and I don't think it's an uncommon characteristic. It bothers me when the peanut gallery is talking while I serve. It bothers me when players yell out on adjacent courts. Hell, it bothers pro players when fans are walking in the stands (which isn't something I would ever notice). Maybe I'm sensitive, but that's why the rule exists. Tennis is an honorable sport, and I wouldn't call it unless I was truly hindered. That was the 1st time in 15 years of tennis I ever called it.

[Roforot]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

<edit>
The opponent (mixed dubs) was a lady I know well. She is, erm, exuberant on the court. She celebrates her own winners with gusto. She laments errors loudly. Many people, including her partners, find this bothersome. When she was my teammate, some ladies objected to playing with her because they didn't like it (especially the outbursts following their errors).
<edit>

In the moment, you were in the right to call her on the outburst. However, in the big picture, you failed to correct the situation when you were her teammate or captain. Perhaps this could have been avoided and she could have learnt to control her outburst if there had been more candor and open discussion rather than behind the back sniping.

As far as warning calls for short lobs, I've seen some college and pro doubles and have heard them call out "short" and have not seen a hinderance called. Then again, a lot of those guys will face up to that overhead and still try to get it back in play! For me, I'd rather risk being called for a hinderance than let my guy get creamed.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Roforot

In the moment, you were in the right to call her on the outburst. However, in the big picture, you failed to correct the situation when you were her teammate or captain. Perhaps this could have been avoided and she could have learnt to control her outburst if there had been more candor and open discussion rather than behind the back sniping.

Um . . . As captain, I had a discussion with her and told her that her on-court antics were upsetting her partners. She took great offense at this and left the team that day. She said if her teammates were complaining about her behind her back, then this was not the team for her.

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by beernutz

From all this discussion it appears I'm probably in the minority of players who have never called a hindrance in league play. I've been playing USTA and our local league regularly since 2005 and have yet to call a hindrance on an opponent in either doubles or singles. In fact I don't think I've even warned an opponent who I thought was exhibiting questionable behavior that what they were doing (e.g. yelling while the ball was headed towards us) might be construed as a hindrance. I have however discussed it with a doubles partner when I thought their actions might be considered a hindrance by the other team. The flip side of that coin is that I've also never had an opponent call a hindrance on me or my partner either.

You are not alone... I've never called a hindrance either, in 6 or 7 years of USTA play. Actually I don't think I've even ever witnessed a hindrance being called (by opponents or adjacent courts).

Originally Posted by dcdoorknob

Yeah I never really understood the need to warn or desire to be warned about short lobs. If my partner hits a short lob, I can typically figure it out without much problem or delay and without any verbal help from my partner.

Agree with this.

[Roforot]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Um . . . As captain, I had a discussion with her and told her that her on-court antics were upsetting her partners. She took great offense at this and left the team that day. She said if her teammates were complaining about her behind her back, then this was not the team for her.

What's her problem? It's like warning a partner that they're foot faulting... down the road, that warning may save them a point or two in tight matches or tournaments w/ wandering refs.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Roforot

What's her problem? It's like warning a partner that they're foot faulting... down the road, that warning may save them a point or two in tight matches or tournaments w/ wandering refs.

Folks don't like to be criticized. I can see why someone in her position would conclude that her teammates had been whispering about these problems behind her back.

'Cause they were.

[SeriousSummer]

My regular hitting partner often says something like "Aw [crap]" when he hits a ball he thinks is going out--and sometimes it goes in.

We've played often enough so that I ignore it now, but to begin with sometimes I'd get a late start for a ball because I assumed he was right about it being out.

I would think this is the most common type of hindrance that you'd run into playing singles.

[TimothyO]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I don't dispute what you say or what the rule is.

What I can say that I have played a bucket-load of USTA matches, and a lot of people talk/yell when they are supposed to be quiet. Yet I've never called a hindrance before and have never been called for one.

What that says to me is that players are not in fact as easily distractable as you suggest.

I guess what I am saying is that a player who claims a point due to hindrance if their opponent says something legitimate should be quite clear in their own mind that they were in fact hindered. I sensed in some of the posts that folks were calling hindrance due merely to the fact that the opponents talked and not necessarily because they were hindered by the talking.

An opponent hits a weak lob, you prepare to hit an overhead smash, the oppnent says, "Look out".

What does look out mean? Is it a warning to their partner? Is it a warning to you that you're about to step on an errant ball?

Volume, intent, etc. do not matter in this case.

Just show some self control and common courtesy and don't speak when the ball is heading towards your opponent.

[TimothyO]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

FWIW, NTRPolice, I disagree that it is a bad idea to warn your partner of a short lob.

I have had partners explicitly ask me to warn them of short lobs. I give the warning if I think of it, and I appreciate it when they do it for me.

Yes, giving a warning runs the microscopic risk that some opponent someday might claim hindrance and claim the point. Failing to give a warning, however, risks that (1) your net player will be surprised by a short lob, and (2) that partner will dislike playing with you because you throw up short lobs but won't warn.

I think if we took a show of hands of how many people here have ever had an opponent claim hindrance if they say "Short" or "Watch it" or "Watch out" when they hit a short lob, very few people would say this happens.

I think it happens even less at the higher levels because players know that giving a warning is quite common.

I dislike it when I hit the ball out but a rule is a rule. If I hit out, I lose the point.

Whether or not the penaltY is called frequently the rule is there for good reason. Breaking it is, well, cheating, and you're basically putting your opponent in the unpleasant position of having to supervise YOUR behavior and adherence to the rules. And you're hoping they'll feel uncomfortable enough to not enforce the rule...

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by TimothyO

I dislike it when I hit the ball out but a rule is a rule. If I hit out, I lose the point.

Whether or not the penaltY is called frequently the rule is there for good reason. Breaking it is, well, cheating, and you're basically putting your opponent in the unpleasant position of having to supervise YOUR behavior and adherence to the rules. And you're hoping they'll feel uncomfortable enough to not enforce the rule...

Sorry, I disagree.

It is common and understood that folks will warn their partners (or say things like "Stay") when the ball is on the way to the other side. This is not cheating.

It is something that can be punished if the other side chooses to claim hindrance. So long as I accept your hindrance call should you choose to make one, there is no problem and no one has cheated.

It's not me who is putting you in the unpleasant position of having to call a hindrance. The rule does that. After all, the rule could be written to say that talking is automatic loss of point. The rule is not that rigid, perhaps in recognition that minor and well-intentioned communication doesn't present a problem for most people.

[kylebarendrick]

I generally recommend that people avoid developing habits that give their opponents an opportunity to legitimately take points during a match. Common habits of this type include warning your partner about a short ball, foot faulting, and catching balls before they bounce. None of these actions give you a significant advantage in a match, so don't give your opponents a free point by doing them.

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Sorry, I disagree.

It is common and understood that folks will warn their partners (or say things like "Stay") when the ball is on the way to the other side. This is not cheating.

Yes, it is cheating.

In "park tennis" its "understood". It's also acceptable to foot fault, catch balls going obviously out, take extended breaks between points/games/sets, and drink alcohol. We're not talking about park rules.

You can say "stay" all you want, as long as the ball is coming over to your side of the court.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

It is something that can be punished if the other side chooses to claim hindrance. So long as I accept your hindrance call should you choose to make one, there is no problem and no one has cheated.

You're breaking the rules. Whether or not they call it is irrelevant. If I foot fault, im cheating. If I "hinder", im cheating. If I catch a ball with my racket that's going out and still win the point, im cheating. If I bean and opponent with a serve and do not claim the point, im cheating.

All of those instances ARE CHEATING. They're just not enforced more often than not.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

It's not me who is putting you in the unpleasant position of having to call a hindrance. The rule does that. After all, the rule could be written to say that talking is automatic loss of point. The rule is not that rigid, perhaps in recognition that minor and well-intentioned communication doesn't present a problem for most people.

As pretty much everyone else has been saying... your "intentions" dont matter and why you seem to think that "it's ok, as long as they dont call it." is just silly.

I'm not saying you should call a hindrance every time someone says "watch out!" and neither is anyone else. We're just saying that you are breaking the rules and its a terribly bad habit (like foot faulting, or catching balls going obviously long) to "hinder" your opponent.

So, does your world view include "It's not up to people to behave themselves, its up to the victim to prosecute"?

I cant see that going very well.

[Roforot]

This is analagous to the enforcement of the time limits b/w points. I don't watch a lot of live doubles, but I've been to college matches and seen some pros at Indian Wells and Miami. I have never seen the refs call hindrance for doubles teams that communicate during the point. I don't argue that they couldn't and perhaps you've seen a match where this occurred.

As amateurs it is worth the risk of losing that point to give my partner an extra second to bail. I figure if they're the sort that would claim a hindrance for that, then they'd be the sort that would try to do some damage w/ their overhead.

I think there are unwritten rules of sportsmanship on the court. I've been lucky having played in Texas and NY w/ people who were good sports (not counting my brief stint in mixed dubs).

[gmatheis]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Sorry, I disagree.

It is common and understood that folks will warn their partners (or say things like "Stay") when the ball is on the way to the other side. This is not cheating.

It is something that can be punished if the other side chooses to claim hindrance. So long as I accept your hindrance call should you choose to make one, there is no problem and no one has cheated.

It's not me who is putting you in the unpleasant position of having to call a hindrance. The rule does that. After all, the rule could be written to say that talking is automatic loss of point. The rule is not that rigid, perhaps in recognition that minor and well-intentioned communication doesn't present a problem for most people.

Cheating - To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

32. Talking during point. A player shall not talk while a ball is moving toward an opponent’s side of the court.

You are cheating . plain and simple.

[gmatheis]

Originally Posted by Roforot

This is analagous to the enforcement of the time limits b/w points. I don't watch a lot of live doubles, but I've been to college matches and seen some pros at Indian Wells and Miami. I have never seen the refs call hindrance for doubles teams that communicate during the point. I don't argue that they couldn't and perhaps you've seen a match where this occurred.

As amateurs it is worth the risk of losing that point to give my partner an extra second to bail. I figure if they're the sort that would claim a hindrance for that, then they'd be the sort that would try to do some damage w/ their overhead.

I think there are unwritten rules of sportsmanship on the court. I've been lucky having played in Texas and NY w/ people who were good sports (not counting my brief stint in mixed dubs).

You are allowed to communicate all you want while the ball is heading towards your side of the court.

One of those unwritten rules of sportsmanship is that you don't talk whie the ball is heading towards your opponents side of the court ... of wait that's a WRITTEN rule.

[Roforot]

Originally Posted by gmatheis

You are allowed to communicate all you want while the ball is heading towards your side of the court.

One of those unwritten rules of sportsmanship is that you don't talk whie the ball is heading towards your opponents side of the court ... of wait that's a WRITTEN rule.

Look you're correct about the written rule.
But, no the unwritten rule is "You don't call a hinderance on brief communication b/w your opponents"

Again, how many times have you seen a ref call hinderance or even give a warning for this sort of communication?

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Roforot

Look you're correct about the written rule.
But, no the unwritten rule is "You don't call a hinderance on brief communication b/w your opponents"

Again, how many times have you seen a ref call hinderance or even give a warning for this sort of communication?

I played a center court dubs match at La Jolla once--had a chair-ump, electronic scoreboard and everything. The chair-ump called us all over early on in the match and admonished us not to say ANYTHING while the ball was on our opponent's side of the net. I couldn't recall saying anything or hearing our opponent's say anything either--I sure as heck didn't utter anything after that.

Moral of the story, when in doubt--STFU! I don't communicate much, if at all, with my partner during a point, I like to give him credit (or the benefit of the doubt) that he knows how to play the game and is playing on the same court as me. If someone is shouting in my ear, just as I'm about to contact the ball, my biceps and triceps don't like it--make's 'em jumpy.

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by Roforot

Look you're correct about the written rule.
But, no the unwritten rule is "You don't call a hinderance on brief communication b/w your opponents"

Again, how many times have you seen a ref call hinderance or even give a warning for this sort of communication?

It's not about it being "brief" or the "intent".

Pro's get called on it for yelling "c'mon" all the time in SINGLES and not even on "doubles overheads at the net". They hit what they perceive to be a "winner" and the prematurely "celebrate" by uttering "c'mon" (vamos', allez, or w/e) and lose the point more often than not.

Anyone who knows the rules does not yell like that when they hit a bad overhead. Only park players do it. Maybe some college/pro players get away with it. That doesnt make it "ok" or make it "not a rule".

Someone yelling "watch out!" does distract you. It's happened to everyone who plays doubles at least once in their life. Do we claim the hindrance point 100% of the time? No. That doesnt mean its "ok" to do.

Like I said, in "park tennis" its ok to break these types of rules. It's ok to foot fault. It's ok to catch balls going obviously long. It's ok to play a let for anything you see fit. That doesnt mean we didnt break 47 different rules in the court of our friendly match and we're definitely not using that as weight in our argument.

It's also a loss of point for a "deliberate" hindrance, which is what this is.
It would be a "let" if it was ruled "accidental".

Under no circumstance would there be a "warning".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNhQzDFQPtI

The second point you can hear Henin say "allez" which is ruled a deliberate hindrance and she loses the point. That's exactly the same thing as yelling "watch out" in doubles to "warn your partner" of an impending overhead smash which implies they have a play at the ball.