Defend the contact point/unit turns are the two most common causes of errors

[dominikk1985]

all balls are hit out front but kite is right that the high one should be hit out front a little more.

that swing is basically a swing around the shoulder (actually a little more complicated because the spine is another fulcrum so it is going around the body too but lets ignore that for now).

so the more up the ball is the more you have to hit out front to stay on the arc. the low ball is still hit out front but not as much as the high ball.


upload pictures

[psv255]

I've always liked to picture all of my possible contact points as a 3-dimensional figure resembling a long, curved tube. It's as if my frame is a brush that paints in space the window in which I have to capture the ball when I time correctly.

If imagined in this way (along with dominikk's figure above), it becomes clear that our contact point for lower balls is farther back, and for medium-height balls it is more out in front.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Don't you mean the opposite?

I don't think so. I think sureshs is reading it to mean more directly in front based
on his post, like directly between you and the opponent, but
ball closer to net than you is contact in a "plane" parallel BL that is
closer to net than the "plane" of your body that is parallel to BL.
(usually out on the 45 from your body position)

[5263]

Originally Posted by kiteboard

When you study pro rallies, and see when they miss, it's always due to: late coil turn, or wrong contact point defense. No one misses when they coil early, unless it's a no pace jamming ball, and they miss due to their bodies slowing down, or hitting too far out in front on no pace shots.


They miss high volleys, or high groundies, when they hit late, and they go long. Sometimes they hit too early, and go into net on high shots, but it's far more often a late contact. Talk to Roddick about that high bh volley that cost him a wimby. Too late, and missed wide/long.

It's almost impossible to be on the right spot on every shot in a match. But if you know why you are missing, trying to maintain the same contact distance, on every shot, and not coiling early enough, you can be more aggressive in fixing those errors during a match.

Imo those are side effects of the real culprit causing misses... which
is unstable or off balance to an extent.
Imo this causes the timing errors you mention for
good players.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by 5263

I don't think so. I think sureshs is reading it to mean more directly in front based
on his post, like directly between you and the opponent, but
ball closer to net than you is contact in a "plane" parallel BL that is
closer to net than the "plane" of your body that is parallel to BL.
(usually out on the 45 from your body position)

Huh? i have no idea what you are saying here.

Originally Posted by 5263
Can be a confusing term as some like suresh here will think it means hitting directly in front of the torso, vs closer to the net than the player.

When I said 'opposite' I was referring to the statement you made above.
To me it sounds like you are saying that hitting out in front means hitting the ball while it is closer to the net that the body. Is that what you meant?

[5263]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

To me it sounds like you are saying that hitting out in front means hitting the ball while it is closer to the net that the body. Is that what you meant?

LOL

How about this. Out front means the contact pt has less distance to the net
than your body has to net.
??

Hitting behind you means you are closer to the net than the contact point and
hitting to the side means you and the contact pt are both about the same
distance to the net.
??

[Cheetah]

Shouldn't it be defined by body w/o regard to the net? What about a running fh where your torso is pointed to the side fence on contact and the racquet and body are the same distance to the net but the racquet is in front of the body like on an open stance cc? You wouldn't say that was hit out in front?

[psv255]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Shouldn't it be defined by body w/o regard to the net? What about a running fh where your torso is pointed to the side fence on contact and the racquet and body are the same distance to the net but the racquet is in front of the body like on an open stance cc? You wouldn't say that was hit out in front?

I agree, the net seems to overcomplicate matters. All you really need is a comfortable distance for the arm between body and racquet to execute a proper swing, racquet face facing the target.

I guess 5263 was thinking of the generic, easily returnable rally ball, where the contact point is in front and to the side.

sureshs -- I had trouble with the phrase "hitting out in front" -- whenever I would voluntarily try to hit out in front, I would end up swinging early, overextending, and pretty much shanking or misfiring. When looking to your target when swinging, it may seem like you hit to the side (since the contact pt relative to your body is at the edge of your field of vision). Truth is, the reason that you see it at all is because it's in front.

[5263]

[quote=psv255;7005432]
I guess 5263 was thinking of the generic, easily returnable rally ball, where the contact point is in front and to the side.
/QUOTE]

yes, as I feel you have to discuss things from some kind of basis and I feel the
rally BL shot is that basic function to describe things from...not tweeners,
running Fhs or any other specialty shots.
The Running Fh would be looking at it like sureshs imo, but can't say for sure
what he is saying, but no,
I wouldn't consider that out front. I think it depends more on where the body
is and where the shot is going to determine. For me, the running Fh is normally
hit more to the side and the body is turned to closed.
Not saying you are wrong though, but
think you are missing the important dynamic on how shots are produced, which
is stroke rotating around the body and heading over the net.

[Roforot]

Originally Posted by pvaudio

I promise you every single pro hits the ball in fron. All that means is that their arm, at contact (or the racquet face if you wish), is ahead of the plane of their chest.
<images edited out>

Okay I did my best to find pictures/stop videos when Federer's hitting a lower ball to see if his contact point is less in front for those shots. I can't say I'm convinced but it could be more a reflection of my search skills. When I think about it on my BH side (I have a 1hBH) this intuitively seems correct.

Besides being more in front is the contact point also a bit more to the side?

Let me ask this another way, for higher balls do you straighten your elbow more? Is the elbow further away from your torso at contact on a high ball vs. a shorter ball. I use a "double bend" FH.

Thanks.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by 5263

Can be a confusing term as some like suresh here will think it means hitting
directly in front of the torso, vs closer to the net than the player.

I am going by definition in post #9 (not posted by me).

Whether turned more or turned less, hitting in front of plane of chest.

Is that wrong?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by psv255

sureshs -- I had trouble with the phrase "hitting out in front" -- whenever I would voluntarily try to hit out in front, I would end up swinging early, overextending, and pretty much shanking or misfiring. When looking to your target when swinging, it may seem like you hit to the side (since the contact pt relative to your body is at the edge of your field of vision). Truth is, the reason that you see it at all is because it's in front.

EXACTLY!

You see the ball and hit it because you hit out in front.

So what is the point of the advice????? I had already mentioned exactly what you said, namely that players hearing the advice gird their loins and bravely adopt an extreme open stance and swing early and overextend and screw up their shot.

That is called taking the ball early. Only a few can do it. It depends on your height too.

But you can stand back, adopt a neutral stance, take the ball very late and yet hit out in front!!!

Taking it early and hitting out in front are orthogonal issues.

[psv255]

Originally Posted by sureshs

EXACTLY!

You see the ball and hit it because you hit out in front.

So what is the point of the advice????? I had already mentioned exactly what you said, namely that players hearing the advice gird their loins and bravely adopt an extreme open stance and swing early and overextend and screw up their shot..

Yep!

I think the advice to "hit out in front" is most effectively directed at the player who uses a late "wrist flick"; rather than leading with the arm and "dragging" the racquet head, some tend to hit the ball literally to their side, in the plane of their body, on a regular rally ball! This is not only counterproductive but can easily lead to injury, so that would be the target audience for "hitting out in front."

For those interested, this is a fun video to actually see how different "in front" and "to the side" are and why one would want to hit "in front."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKUtZ...ZizLCM4#t=158s

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by psv255

Yep!

I think the advice to "hit out in front" is most effectively directed at the player who uses a late "wrist flick"; rather than leading with the arm and "dragging" the racquet head, some tend to hit the ball literally to their side, in the plane of their body, on a regular rally ball! This is not only counterproductive but can easily lead to injury, so that would be the target audience for "hitting out in front."

For those interested, this is a fun video to actually see how different "in front" and "to the side" are and why one would want to hit "in front."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKUtZ...ZizLCM4#t=158s

I see. Sort of like a security guard squarely blocking the way of people, with hands outstretched, and flicking his wrist to say "go back."

I have never seen any 3.5 and above hit it this way, which makes me wonder about the value of the advice.

[psv255]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I see. Sort of like a security guard squarely blocking the way of people and flicking his wrist to say "go back."

I have never seen any 3.5 and above hit it this way, which makes me wonder about the value of the advice.

There was actually a guy I hit with recently (admittedly, a pity favor more than anything ) who somehow spun the ball with a continental grip by hitting the ball at his side, something resembling a topspin drive in table tennis. He used his shoulder as a fulcrum and wrist for a last-minute boost in power and spin. It was painful to watch, and probably not painless for him either.

But I think there a good deal of starting players, many under 2.5/3.0 perhaps, who are in need of such instruction. Undoubtedly, as you move thru the NTRP system, you develop technique that makes some tips obsolete and others more relevant

[Cheetah]

[quote=5263;7005657]

Originally Posted by psv255

I guess 5263 was thinking of the generic, easily returnable rally ball, where the contact point is in front and to the side.
/QUOTE]

yes, as I feel you have to discuss things from some kind of basis and I feel the
rally BL shot is that basic function to describe things from...not tweeners,
running Fhs or any other specialty shots.
The Running Fh would be looking at it like sureshs imo, but can't say for sure
what he is saying, but no,
I wouldn't consider that out front. I think it depends more on where the body
is and where the shot is going to determine. For me, the running Fh is normally
hit more to the side and the body is turned to closed.
Not saying you are wrong though, but
think you are missing the important dynamic on how shots are produced, which
is stroke rotating around the body and heading over the net.

Yes i agree about defining technique as rally balls.

but for the sake of discussion... i think the out front is not related to 'heading over the net'.

By your definition it sounds like you are saying front and side of the body is determined by which direction they are facing. So if they facing the net and hit out in front then they are 'hitting out in front' and if they facing and running towards the side fence and hit out in front then they are 'hitting on the side of the body'. That doesn't seem right.

The optimal position of the racquet position at contact related to the torso/body is the same (give or take a couple inches maybe) for a rally ball facing the net and a running fh facing the sidefence ...which is 'in front of' the torso in the direction the torso is facing.

[Power Player]

If you don't hit out in front you are robbing yourself of a lot of easy power.

[5263]

[quote=Cheetah;7006243]

Originally Posted by 5263

Yes i agree about defining technique as rally balls.

but for the sake of discussion... i think the out front is not related to 'heading over the net'.

By your definition it sounds like you are saying front and side of the body is determined by which direction they are facing. So if they facing the net and hit out in front then they are 'hitting out in front' and if they facing and running towards the side fence and hit out in front then they are 'hitting on the side of the body'. That doesn't seem right.

The optimal position of the racquet position at contact related to the torso/body is the same (give or take a couple inches maybe) for a rally ball facing the net and a running fh facing the sidefence ...which is 'in front of' the torso in the direction the torso is facing.

I see your point, but disagree for a couple of reasons. How can you reference the torso?
and at what point in the swing?
What would that even tell you?
Closed stance has the torso facing to the side or even back some.
Open stance, the chest of the torso should be coiled to the side strongly.
Neutral has chest and torso to side.
Are you suggesting that when the torso/chest is facing side, that hitting to
the front of it (towards the side fence) is hitting out front??
And yes, I understand the torso is turning during the stroke, but...that also
makes it a poor reference related to hitting in front of it.

Imo it is related to where the ball came from (which is the net direction)
and related to your center of rotation.
Your center of rotation needs to be closer to the back fence than your
contact point or
the contact point should be closer to the net than your center of rotation
when possible.
Squash shot is for reaching behind to get the contact and Continental tends
to be more to the side contact; both being weaker in general than shots
with the contact in front, closer to net than the center of rotation or mass.
A running Fh can be strong due to the harness of the side moving momentum
in the arc of the swing to counter the weaker contact position that is
sometimes required. Running Fh can be hit out front, to the side, or even behind the cor.

The key here is that the power source needs to be behind the contact to some extent
for best power and control; and behind it relative to where it sending the ball.
The book "Design B" describes hitting out front.

I guess this discussion explains why many screw this up.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

That is called taking the ball early. Only a few can do it. It depends on your height too.

But you can stand back, adopt a neutral stance, take the ball very late and yet hit out in front!!!

Taking it early and hitting out in front are orthogonal issues.

What do think taking the ball early means??

All this is truly slang, but u seem to have different understanding of it than most
instructors I've spoken with about it. I don't see how stance has anything to
do with taking it early or how it is orthogonal to hitting out front.

[Ash_Smith]

^^^I think this is often where issues on the board occur. Those in the tennis teaching industry tend to use certain terminology to mean certain things and it's okay because all those on the inside understand them. When talking to those outside the industry we have to remember the terminology may not be so well agreed upon and understood.

For example, Sureshs uses the term "late" to describe the contact in relation to the ball (where a coach would use on the rise or on the drop) as opposed to a coaches use of "late" to describe the contact in relation to the body (i.e. a contact behind the plane of the body).