How to deal with side spin?

[treblings]

Originally Posted by LeeD

The key to learning to hit against a top player who uses some sidespin is to hit with top players over and over again, until you learn to hit thru the ball, prep early, get shoulder's turned, even look at the ball, if needed......
All the words in the world help little, you gotta go out there and experience it, learn to adapt to it, and hit through it.

good advice, given by me at #37 and #50
some people like to talk about things others like to do things

[Prodigy1234]

Small adjustment steps until the very last minute, if you look at this clip, against Nadal's sidespin, Murray takes very small steps.

[toly]

There is Federer Monster Kick (American Twist) Serve Ace http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM1P2ej4YtY.

Federer hits the ball with slightly closed racquet. That’s why the ball curves to the opponent right and bounces to his left.

This player obviously is not able to analyze aerodynamics of the ball flight and cannot use any adjustable steps. Before he makes these steps he has to know exactly direction of the ball bounce.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by toly

3. I think forehand and backhand sidespin-underspin slices move in the same direction in both cases.
This is true if during contact racquet string bed was vertical.

It usually isn't vertical, more like horizontal, yet I see it it move in the same direction in air and ground, so something is not right here.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

It usually isn't vertical, more like horizontal, yet I see it it move in the same direction in air and ground, so something is not right here.

Because they skid

[toly]

Originally Posted by sureshs

It usually isn't vertical, more like horizontal, yet I see it it move in the same direction in air and ground, so something is not right here.

There are two simple ideas:

1. The axis of the ball spin is always parallel to the string bed.

2. The axis of the ball spin is always perpendicular to the tangential component of the racquet velocity.

So, to create gyro-spin the racquet must be not vertical, otherwise there would be just sidespin, top/back spins, and their combination. The latter type of spins doesn’t change direction of the ball after bounce.

Maybe I should make some pictures to clarify the matter?

[LeeD]

You can explain, show, analyse, critique, show vids, all you want, but no player will ever understand until they go out there and face those shots.

[Power Player]

Originally Posted by LeeD

You can explain, show, analyse, critique, show vids, all you want, but no player will ever understand until they go out there and face those shots.

Agree. I can't believe this thread hit 3 pages. Move your feet, prepare early, play more tennis. It will all come together.

[LeeD]

I can prepare early. The first and third is beyond my means.
The last, that came and went 30 years ago.

[toly]

Originally Posted by LeeD

You can explain, show, analyse, critique, show vids, all you want, but no player will ever understand until they go out there and face those shots.

In video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM1P2ej4YtY Alejandro Falla, 29 years old pro from Columbia, looks like followed your advice, but failed to learn how to recognize direction of the ball bounce. IMO, he first must learn this stuff theoretically, then go to court and destroy Federer serve.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by 5263

Because they skid

Of course it skids. My question was why toly said the racket face was vertical for a slice.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by LeeD

You can explain, show, analyse, critique, show vids, all you want, but no player will ever understand until they go out there and face those shots.

What is the point of this post? By this logic, there is no need for this forum.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Of course it skids. My question was why toly said the racket face was vertical for a slice.

Ur question was also why they continue in the same direction after the bounce.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by 5263

Ur question was also why they continue in the same direction after the bounce.

That was my original question. My second question was directed to toly.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

That was my original question. My second question was directed to toly.

and that is why I did not deal with it

[treblings]

Originally Posted by toly

In video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM1P2ej4YtY Alejandro Falla, 29 years old pro from Columbia, looks like followed your advice, but failed to learn how to recognize direction of the ball bounce. IMO, he first must learn this stuff theoretically, then go to court and destroy Federer serve.

that is not Falla in the video

[Avles]

Originally Posted by sureshs

What is the point of this post? By this logic, there is no need for this forum.

Not true. This forum can provide general technical guidance, tactical suggestions, potentially helpful mental cues (like "hit up the mountain"), drill ideas, and so on. That stuff can all be very helpful.

But like treblings and LeeD are trying to tell you, those tips are just the tip of the iceberg. They'll get you started at best. You won't learn how to deal with tough sidespin from forum tips and explanations, you just won't. That would be be like trying to learn to play a Chopin prelude from reading a piano forum.

Reps, not tips. Focused practice. Incremental improvement from experience, preferably guided by competent teachers. That's where real learning happens IMO.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Avles

Not true. This forum can provide general technical guidance, tactical suggestions, potentially helpful mental cues (like "hit up the mountain"), drill ideas, and so on. That stuff can all be very helpful.

But like treblings and LeeD are trying to tell you, those tips are just the tip of the iceberg. They'll get you started at best. You won't learn how to deal with tough sidespin from forum tips and explanations, you just won't. That would be be like trying to learn to play a Chopin prelude from reading a piano forum.

Reps, not tips. Focused practice. Incremental improvement from experience, preferably guided by competent teachers. That's where real learning happens IMO.

And your point is? Who said anything about not practicing? Do you think I post here when I could be practicing? Absolutely wrong. Every chance I get outside of work and family I am on the lookout to be on the court.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by sureshs

And your point is? Who said anything about not practicing? Do you think I post here when I could be practicing? Absolutely wrong. Every chance I get outside of work and family I am on the lookout to be on the court.

Fair enough, I wasn't trying to accuse you of not practicing, and I feel the same way. The problem I face, and I suspect you face too, is that just being on the court doesn't really cut it, you need to be facing the kinds of shots that give you trouble, over and over, until you are used to them.

It would be great if someone could just explain to me how to effectively respond to high, heavy topspin shots to my backhand, and then I could go put it into practice. But I don't think it works that way! If I am ever going to improve against those shots (and it seems like a big if sometimes) it will take lots more practice, practice getting my feet and body in position quickly, practice reading the ball, practice timing my stroke, etc. Those aren't really things that can be explained.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Avles

Fair enough, I wasn't trying to accuse you of not practicing, and I feel the same way. The problem I face, and I suspect you face too, is that just being on the court doesn't really cut it, you need to be facing the kinds of shots that give you trouble, over and over, until you are used to them.

It would be great if someone could just explain to me how to effectively respond to high, heavy topspin shots to my backhand, and then I could go put it into practice. But I don't think it works that way! If I am ever going to improve against those shots (and it seems like a big if sometimes) it will take lots more practice, practice getting my feet and body in position quickly, practice reading the ball, practice timing my stroke, etc. Those aren't really things that can be explained.

BH topspin should be easy to practice isn't it because ball machines can produce that spin. They cannot produce side spin though.

Playing with a lot of different people is also important. Doing well against someone who hits with no pace can be as hard as playing against a college player. That is why I hit with everyone, from juniors to grandpas. Just last Friday I returned serves for a high school girl who seemed to have a very ordinary swing, yet was sending them down the T with a fair amount of spin and pace.