Question on defaults

[tennis tom]

Do whatever the rules allow for. You may want to hire a law firm that specializes in this particular area of regulation.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Jakes On A Plane

...I understand the ethical arguments (to a point), but I don't see it as severe as some others have made it out to be.

...Since this was a makeup match, I'm not going to have a team show up to the court just to tell them they can go home. It's pointless. Nobody benefits from a default, so why not help out a teammate who wants to play and have fun like the rest of of us? The "code of ethics" were not broken, and if bent, only slightly.

-Jakes

I approve and agree with this opinion.

[SwankPeRFection]

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

I'd put her in. Other captain can eat me. If this is a make up, defaulted in advance, she has no right to force my players to show up for a match that won't happen.

No difference having this player inserted than any other. I get the Code argument, but its not like you're adding a ringer at the season. She's on the team.

The key detail here is that she hasn't played enough matches to be allowed to go to state if she doesn't play one more... which this is the last match of the season and a default. That's why it's wrong!

[Cindysphinx]

The rules in many leagues say that a player is eligible for post-season if she plays two matches, *one of which can be a default.*

So what's the problem?

[SwankPeRFection]

Originally Posted by Jakes On A Plane

I just want to thank everybody so far for their opinions. I do appreciate them. Swank...if I were you, I would try to sound a little less like a jerk when preaching.

Here is little bit more back story and an update on how things ended up:

This is the first year we have been able to get an 8.5 Combo Mixed league going in the area. Me and the other captain have been very laid back and trying to do our very best to play every match, make it competitive, and attempt to draw more people in for next year. We have not had any problems, and this issue did not end up being a problem.

We are taking the court as a default win with my out-of-towner listed on the court. The defaulting captain understood my predicament. My out-of-towner had already played a match which made her ineligible to receive a refund. She is closer to where we would be for districts and is really excited about attending. This was not an ultra-competitive, cut throat league. My out-of-towner was just as much a part of this 8.5 experiment as the rest of us and deserves a chance to compete. The reason for me telling the other captain about my plan in the first place was, because of our openness and flexibility over the course of the season.

I understand the ethical arguments (to a point), but I don't see it as severe as some others have made it out to be. The fact is that the defaulting captain came to me first saying she was going to have to default the court, and it is ultimately up to me who I place as the "winners". Since this was a makeup match, I'm not going to have a team show up to the court just to tell them they can go home. It's pointless. Nobody benefits from a default, so why not help out a teammate who wants to play and have fun like the rest of of us? The "code of ethics" were not broken, and if bent, only slightly.

There are a ton of knowledgeable posters on this board. I'm normally only on the college tennis talk forum, but I will definitely start posting on here more. Thanks for your opinions.

-Jakes

I have no problem with sounding like a jerk. The truth hurts.

Also, as for the bolded part. Your "out of towner" BENEFITED from the default. She now gets to go to finals when in fact, had the match been played, she wouldn't have been in the lineup and wouldn't be going to state. If you're going to be a member of a team, be a member and commit to the schedule. If you can't, then you can't, but don't expect a captain to cheat the system by bending the rules and their own ethical moral ground... something that you did.

I could care less if this was a big issue or not, that's not the point. The point is, if this minor bending of rules is OK now, what else will be OK later. That's the big picture here.

[SwankPeRFection]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

The rules in many leagues say that a player is eligible for post-season if she plays two matches, *one of which can be a default.*

So what's the problem?

The problem is that player WASN'T in a ready state to play the match. By the rules, a default must be taken as a win by the winning team of that default if they truly have two eligible players to play that slot. If you do not, then it's a double-default. Or you play the players who are available. Usually defaults are decided on match day when insufficient players on a team are available. That team forfeits a slot or the entire match depending on numbers. Nowadays matches seem to be getting defaulted on the phone, especially when it's a make-up match and one of the parties doesn't feel like bothering to show up for it. It's much easier to cheat the system when you aren't forced to actually be present to make the decision.

Like I said in the other post. The big issue here is more along the lines that this player is now benefiting from 2 matches as opposed to just 1 match and it allows her to go to finals. That's why this makes it a double-issue really.

The right options are this:

1) Default win with a present player lineup.
2) Double-default because you have no players yourself who could in reality show up to play, regardless of who called who.

[floridatennisdude]

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

I have no problem with sounding like a jerk. The truth hurts.

Also, as for the bolded part. Your "out of towner" BENEFITED from the default. She now gets to go to finals when in fact, had the match been played, she wouldn't have been in the lineup and wouldn't be going to state. If you're going to be a member of a team, be a member and commit to the schedule. If you can't, then you can't, but don't expect a captain to cheat the system by bending the rules and their own ethical moral ground... something that you did.

I could care less if this was a big issue or not, that's not the point. The point is, if this minor bending of rules is OK now, what else will be OK later. That's the big picture here.

Sometimes you catch a break, sometimes you don't. Take em when they happen. I don't see this as cheating. Grey area, sure. Cheating, no.

[Jakes On A Plane]

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

The key detail here is that she hasn't played enough matches to be allowed to go to state if she doesn't play one more... which this is the last match of the season and a default. That's why it's wrong!

This was not the last match of the season. In one of my earlier posts I said we had the league already clinched, but this was not the last match. Read properly...

[Jakes On A Plane]

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

I have no problem with sounding like a jerk. The truth hurts.

Also, as for the bolded part. Your "out of towner" BENEFITED from the default. She now gets to go to finals when in fact, had the match been played, she wouldn't have been in the lineup and wouldn't be going to state. If you're going to be a member of a team, be a member and commit to the schedule. If you can't, then you can't, but don't expect a captain to cheat the system by bending the rules and their own ethical moral ground... something that you did.

I could care less if this was a big issue or not, that's not the point. The point is, if this minor bending of rules is OK now, what else will be OK later. That's the big picture here.

I didn't say nobody ended up benefiting from this situation. I was saying, in a normal situation nobody benefits from defaults. One player or players ends up not getting to play. In this situation however, I decided to let one of my players benefit from a default, so they could compete with their teammates and friends later on. If there is no game to be played in the first place, then I'm not taking away from the game by doing this.

Your code of ethics sounds more like fire and brimstone tennis. No matter what tennis code you follow, there are always going to be inconsistencies and grey areas for you as a captain. I think as long as you are looking out for your team and not doing things at the expense of the game, then you are probably on the right track to being a good captain.

[OrangePower]

In my area, all the captains know each other, and will extend each other the courtesy of advance notification when a default is imminent.

Conversation usually goes like:
Captain A: Do you have enough people for the match tomorrow?
Captain B: Yes.
Captain A: Well, I'm going to have to default a court.

or,

Captain A: Do you have enough people for the match tomorrow?
Captain B: No, I'm probably going to be short.
Captain A: Me too, so looks like we have a double-default.

In the first instance, Captain B can put whoever he/she wants in the lineup for the defaulted court.

There is the odd captain who will try to game things, e.g. not let the other captain know in advance in the hopes that they will have a last-minute no-show, or lie and say they have availability when in fact they don't. But they are quickly found out and get a negative reputation.

[SwankPeRFection]

Originally Posted by Jakes On A Plane

This was not the last match of the season. In one of my earlier posts I said we had the league already clinched, but this was not the last match. Read properly...

Then you should have put someone else in the lineup for that roster and played your out of towner in another match. What part of that don't you understand? You're not ethical... point blank.

[SwankPeRFection]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

In my area, all the captains know each other, and will extend each other the courtesy of advance notification when a default is imminent.

Conversation usually goes like:
Captain A: Do you have enough people for the match tomorrow?
Captain B: Yes.
Captain A: Well, I'm going to have to default a court.

or,

Captain A: Do you have enough people for the match tomorrow?
Captain B: No, I'm probably going to be short.
Captain A: Me too, so looks like we have a double-default.

In the first instance, Captain B can put whoever he/she wants in the lineup for the defaulted court.

There is the odd captain who will try to game things, e.g. not let the other captain know in advance in the hopes that they will have a last-minute no-show, or lie and say they have availability when in fact they don't. But they are quickly found out and get a negative reputation.

Legit group! Keep it up!

[Jakes On A Plane]

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

Then you should have put someone else in the lineup for that roster and played your out of towner in another match. What part of that don't you understand? You're not ethical... point blank.

What does it matter who I put in when the match isn't going to happen in the first place? What do you not understand? It's a grey area. That doesn't make me unethical...point blank.

[floridatennisdude]

Originally Posted by Jakes On A Plane

What does it matter who I put in when the match isn't going to happen in the first place? What do you not understand? It's a grey area. That doesn't make me unethical...point blank.

I don't see it as unethical either. Is handle it just like you did.

Ha she signed up with 2 matches left, played one, and then took a default in the other...a little shadier. Still legal, but shadier.

[Jakes On A Plane]

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

Ha she signed up with 2 matches left, played one, and then took a default in the other...a little shadier. Still legal, but shadier.

I don't know if it's a national rule or not, but our local leagues have a strict signup date. It's normally from a month before matches start to a few days after the 2nd match of the season. Anybody else have that, or is a national rule?

[JoelDali]

This happens all the time in Tri-Combo bowling league.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Jakes On A Plane

I don't know if it's a national rule or not, but our local leagues have a strict signup date. It's normally from a month before matches start to a few days after the 2nd match of the season. Anybody else have that, or is a national rule?

Yeah, we have a limit on when players can be added, and I believe it was to address a situations where players are added at the last second while other players are deleted.

Don't mind Swank-what's-his-name. What you did was within the rules and perfectly fine. He's just trolling.