Low Friction Poly X's For Gut Mains : Softer Alternative to MSV Co-Focus?

[Boricua]

Originally Posted by JT_2eighty

Probably something you can get in a 16 or 16L gauge, depending on how quickly you break strings. I would think 16 gauge gut of your choice (I like Pacific but others may prefer a Babolat or Wilson feel), and then if you want a primarily Comfy cross with good spin... CoFocus 16L is a good one. How many hours are you looking to get? How quickly do you go through a gut/poly setup? Do you want comfort as your main attribute, or control or just pure spin?

I have not used gut/poly in some time but I think I got like 4-5 hours before breaking. Im looking for comfort mostly as the APD is very stiff. But, my game revolves around topspin and a baseline game.

[ChicagoJack]

Originally Posted by parasailing

There's no way Pacific natural gut is softer than Wilson or Babolat natural gut. I tried a couple sets of Pacific and they felt much stiffer than Wilson or Babolat natural gut. Keep in mind I am talking about non BT7 Babolat gut here.

I like Ltec 4s for it's tension maintenance and overall complements VS/Wilson/Prince natural gut mains. Kisrchbaum Evolution is also another good poly cross.

Parasailing - Cool man, thanks for your input, much appreciated! Just a quick note on the stiffness data. In the sortable index there's quite a few variables at play here. Three reference tensions, and three swing speeds. The references I've used are the defacto std here at tw and the usrsa, 62 lbs and fast swing speed. That's way stiffer than anybody should be stringing poly, but that's the hand we are dealt. Gut is so tightly clustered together, with so little measurable dif btwn them in terms of stiffness, that any change in those parameters, has them change places in the ranking order. So for something unique like Pacific Tough Gut for example, depending on the inputs here at TW, you might find it ranking slightly softer than average, and you can also find it ranking as the stiffest, depending upon the test conditions. Also a bit of disparity btwn TW and USRSA. In the latter, the Pacific Tough Gut is ranked as the softest.

Having said all of that, I think we all know the court is the court, and the lab is the lab. I think tour bite plays way stiffer than the numbers would indicate, and BHBR plays way softer than the data would indicate. The idea for me anyways is to just whittle this down to a manageable demo list and start picking em off from there. I just use the lab digits to kick start the demo process.

-Jack

[ChicagoJack]

Hi all,

I've updated the opening post list with who has ordered what string to demo, and who has experience with what. Hopefully we can pool our experiences and that way we don't all go broke trying to figure this out ha ha. So far wmilas proven to be the most courageous test pilot. I'm eager to hear flight impressions, feedback.

Jack

[ChicagoJack]

Just a quick update. I've been playing with VS Team / Polyfibre Poly Hitec 18 for about 5 days (10 hours) and I'm loving it. It plays very similar, but is quite a bit more comfy than co focus 17L. I felt the comfort factor within the first few hits. Will post more when the tournament wraps up and I get back home.

-Jack

[Torres]

If you ask me, looking solely at inter string friction misses the point, because there are many other factors involved in determining what would make a good poly. Tension loss, firmness of the string, resistance to going dead would be other key considerations IMO. I'd rather have a poly that is strong in all those areas if its at the slight expense of inter string friction.

I'd also suggest trying 4G as a cross. I've only just started a playtest of that string but on initial impressions, it potentially has some interesting characteristics.

[ChicagoJack]

Hi torres,

Thanks for the input, but I think you might be missing the point of the thread? Im searching for a more comfortable option to co focus, comfort is the key attribute. 4G is a great string for tension maintinence, but waay too stiff for me. All the frames at the wilson demo event I attended were strung with 4G, me and the buddy I went with were icing up and hurting the whole way home. 4G is somewhere in the 220's. Im shopping in the 180's lbs. Per in. range

Jack

[Torres]

I understand what you're saying, but you started the thread talking about CoF. What I'm suggesting that there are many factors at play here, not just CoF and softness.

If you want a gut + poly stringbed that's soft that's really not difficult to find. If you want a slippery poly, that's not difficult to find either. If you want a poly that has both, that's not difficult to find either. What I'm saying is that neither of those factors are determinative of outright performance or playability. One really needs to also take into account tension loss, stiffness over time, resistance to going dead etc. Really depends what's most important to you and what playability factor(s) you want to compromise on.

I have to say that I don't find 4G stiff. It's firm and it doesn't have much give but oddly - and this surprised me - it doesn't feel uncomfortable on the arm. My initial hitting with it was as a full bed with racquet with an RA over 70. Maybe the racquets you tried were strung to tight or were the stiff Babolat jarring type of sticks, but arm discomfort, I haven't detected any so far, though I've only been hitting with it for an hour or so. I can't imagine how adding gut mains would make arm unfriendly when its going to be gut mains doing the vast majority of the donkey work on groundstrokes.

[The Big Kahuna]

The MSV Co-Focus in the 18 gauge is extremely hard to beat as a cross with the Gut mains. It is the best combination of playability and value out there and is the reference cross string for a number of us who hybrid. You can pay more and do a lot worse.

[Torres]

I don't know why people keep on mentioning Co-Focus on these forums. Starts off pretty well, but after one hitting session, it starts to turn rubbery, loses a load of tension, and generally starts turning the stringbed to crap.

[ChicagoJack]

Originally Posted by Torres

I understand what you're saying, but you started the thread talking about CoF. What I'm suggesting that there are many factors at play here, not just CoF and softness.

Hi Torres, thanks again for your input, much appreciated. Read the title of my thread. That's what my thread is about. It is a narrow search, down a very particular path. By the way, you might have missed it, but I have posted initial tension loss data for for all of the demo candidates on the opening post.

Originally Posted by Torres

If you want a gut + poly stringbed that's soft that's really not difficult to find. If you want a slippery poly, that's not difficult to find either. If you want a poly that has both, that's not difficult to find either.

Super cool, if you have any suggestions, feel free to lay 'em on me.

Originally Posted by Torres

What I'm saying is that neither of those factors are determinative of outright performance or playability.

I understand, but kinda feel like you are clobbering me over the head with this point, which I'm not contesting. That there are numerous factors surrounding overall string performance is so plainly obvious, it scarcely warrants a mention.

Originally Posted by Torres

One really needs to also take into account tension loss, stiffness over time, resistance to going dead etc. Really depends what's most important to you and what playability factor(s) you want to compromise on

Aha, Bingo! I've chosen what is important to me, and now I am looking for it. Priority 1 = Softer than Co-Focus 17L. Priority 2 = Low Friction, Priority 3 = Low Tension Loss. This is why is have 3 data columns for each of these three factors on the opening post.

Originally Posted by Torres

I have to say that I don't find 4G stiff. It's firm and it doesn't have much give but oddly - and this surprised me - it doesn't feel uncomfortable on the arm. My initial hitting with it was as a full bed with racquet with an RA over 70. Maybe the racquets you tried were strung to tight or were the stiff Babolat jarring type of sticks, but arm discomfort, I haven't detected any so far, though I've only been hitting with it for an hour or so. I can't imagine how adding gut mains would make arm unfriendly when its going to be gut mains doing the vast majority of the donkey work on groundstrokes.

Maybe this will help you understand where I'm coming from. I got my first ever case of TE using a 2012 Babolat PD+ Strung with Gut/Co-Focus, and I've been playing tennis at a decent level with technically sound strokes north of 30 years. I've since switched to a more arm friendly frame, and I stopped playing for 6 weeks, to focus exclusively on off court PT. My hard work has payed off. I'm now 90% pain free, even after having just played 2-3 hours a day for 6 days straight tuning up for and playing in a big tourney. However, I'm still understandably cautious about even 1/2 beds of poly.

Originally Posted by Torres

I don't know why people keep on mentioning Co-Focus on these forums. Starts off pretty well, but after one hitting session, it starts to turn rubbery, loses a load of tension, and generally starts turning the stringbed to crap.

I dunno, maybe I'm just being oversensitive, but I'm kind of getting a low level, overall disdain for the premise of the thread vibe. I'm sorry if the mention of Co-Focus is a pet peeve of yours, but I think it's awesome, just hunting for something a little more comfy with at least comparable tension maintenance. Perhaps you value tension maintenance over comfort, or your search is a little more broadly based, but that's your deal not mine. Different saddles for different butts.

Thanks again

- Jack

[ChicagoJack]

Originally Posted by The Big Kahuna

The MSV Co-Focus in the 18 gauge is extremely hard to beat as a cross with the Gut mains. It is the best combination of playability and value out there and is the reference cross string for a number of us who hybrid. You can pay more and do a lot worse.

I've been playing with Co-Focus off and on since last summer, and yeah it's hard to beat. I've recently found something that fits my specific needs a little better. I'm absolutely sure Polyfiber HiTec 18 is more comfortable than Co-Focus 1.18. I'm saying this with certainty because I have been trading off with both set ups, at identical initial tensions (58/53) in identical frames, from the same package of gut mains. A bit more tension loss, but is still right in line with your average poly. That's a good trade off for me. I've got more to try, but it's the one to beat so far.

[The Big Kahuna]

According the the play test ranking on Stringforum for smooth polys (those best suited for crosses) these are the highest ranked Poly Strings for Crosses in Natural Gut Hybrids:

MSV Co-Focus
Yonex Poly Tour Pro 125
Tecnifibre Black Code
Kirschbaum Pro Line No. II
Signum Pro Poly Plasma
Prince Beast XP
WeissCANNON Silverstring
WeissCANNON Scorpion
Signum Pro Hyperion

[GlenK]

Originally Posted by Torres

I don't know why people keep on mentioning Co-Focus on these forums. Starts off pretty well, but after one hitting session, it starts to turn rubbery, loses a load of tension, and generally starts turning the stringbed to crap.

You should try it as a cross with natural gut. I have not experienced any of what you mention but I have not tried it full bed..
It is awesome in the set up I'm using..

[bad_call]

Originally Posted by ChicagoJack

I dunno, maybe I'm just being oversensitive, but I'm kind of getting a low level, overall disdain for the premise of the thread vibe. I'm sorry if the mention of Co-Focus is a pet peeve of yours, but I think it's awesome, just hunting for something a little more comfy with at least comparable tension maintenance. Perhaps you value tension maintenance over comfort, or your search is a little more broadly based, but that's your deal not mine. Different saddles for different butts.

Thanks again

- Jack

reads like Mitt at it again...

[Power Player]

Jack, I was using cofocus as a cross as well. I had some laying around so i tried it as a main in an OGSM hybrid. I have to say I was rather impressed coming from the springy Cyclone/Nvy setup I had before. the control level was much higher, but the comfort level took a surprising hit.

6 hours in the cofocus was completely dead (18x20 pattern)

What I learned from this was basically to try some of these out as a main first to see how long they last. It gives you a better idea since it is tougher to tell in a cross with gut.

I think 4g is the best cross you could get (if you can afford it). It lasts WAY longer (10-14 hours of play which is about 2 weeks for me). If you can't afford it, I would go with Black Magic. The feel of BM with gut is simply awesome.

It sounds like you may have already found a cross that works, so maybe just disregard everything I just said..lol.

[mctennis]

Jack,
One more variance in your "Different saddles for different butts" statement. Don't forget " and different horses"
The different racquets would be the " different horses" part. I find some, not all mind you, strings play/feel different in different racquets. Not a biggie to add but I like your statement there.
Also , no to just Jack here but to everyone, I don't understand buying strings that only last 4 to 6 hours of play. Even at restringing your own racquet, after a while I would think you would get tired of doing that so quickly with any string. If you have to restring your racquet that often with a string I would really try to find a different string that plays close to that string but lasts a lot longer. Of course, that's just me.

[Power Player]

Do you play with poly? A lot of polys only last that long.

[ChicagoJack]

Hi Big Kahuna,

Super cool, thanks. I've sorted and ranked all of those suggestions by stiffness, and worked them into the big list on the opening post. The Yonex string looks promising. I'm thinking that it must be new? Either that, or it somehow slipped past my search criteria.

Hi Power Player,

Yeah man, I remember you used co focus as well, from our days hanging in the black drive club. There is a a whole lotta love for 4G going around. The tension matainenance numbers are amazing, no argument there. But I just double checked and it's in the 270's for stiffness. (see my opening page post) The softest polys are 160's and the stiffest in the 330's. I know the lab data can be deceiving, but with 300+ polys on the market, I need some way to whittle that down to something more manageable shopping list. It's hard to ignore stiffness digits like that when comfort is my top concern. In addition, 4G was in all of the Wilson racquets at the big demo event, and I came home super sore after just two hours of hitting. I'm not going anywhere near that string. Regarding Black Magic, I'm going to give that a try at some point. Thanks again.

Hi Bad_Call,

Eew, not a Mitt fan here. Will work to adjust any trace of his patter in my posts lol.

My Thoughts on "Dead" String

Despite all the attention this phenomena gets around here, there is no agreement whatsoever among players regarding what "dead" string actually is. I've observed this means different things to different people. Some will report strings are "dead" when control becomes problematic. Some will say it's when power diminishes due to decreased elasticity. Conversely, some will say that it's when the stringbed loses so much tension that it becomes "a rocket launcher". Still others will say it's dead when the arm starts to feel it. It appears to be very personal concept. Meanwhile, back in the lab, the folks who study tennis physics for a living have no freaking idea why we say any of these things.

Personally, (as a doubles specialist hitting the ball about 1/2 as many times as you singles guys) I will snap any full multi nylon in 10 hours or less. I will get 20-30 hours of doubles out of a full bed of 16 gauge gut before snapping the crosses. I don't really play full poly, except for a brief stint with Black Widow 18 and BHBR 17. I get at least 30 hours of good play out of 17g Gut mains with Co-focus 17L.

-Jack

[Power Player]

That make sense. I personally would not use a full bed of 4g either. In a hybrid it is stiff, but the comfort level is a lot higher than say, cofocus. I know that sounds crazy but it really is true for me.

It sounds like the challenge will be softness versus durability. And that boils down to how often you want to restring your gut mains. 4g is one of the few polys that lasts the length of a hybrid setup for me (roughly 2 weeks). It is also not as soft as other strings that last half as long.

Anyway, let us know if you try black magic crosses. I think you may be really happy if it lasts long enough for you.

[The Big Kahuna]

Originally Posted by ChicagoJack

Hi Big Kahuna,

Super cool, thanks. I've sorted and ranked all of those suggestions by stiffness, and worked them into the big list on the opening post. The Yonex string looks promising. I'm thinking that it must be new? Either that, or it somehow slipped past my search criteria.

-Jack

PLEASE let me know how the Yonex plays. I have purchased some, however, the hybrid set-up I have usually lasts 30-40 hours and I have a ways to go before I restring. That is one of the things people like about the MSV Co-Focus 18g - it starts out stiff, then gets a little mushy for an hour or two, and then plays great for hours and hours (even after it is dead, it STILL feels pretty good in a gut/poly hybrid).

I think one of the reasons MSV has such a nation of followers is that is is such a superb VALUE (price to performance) which (when you buy the MSV Co-Focus by the reel and use Pacific Classic Gut) comes to $36. for two racquets.

In the end, I felt I could rationalize that cost when I was having the GUT / POLY hybrid playing well AFTER over 30 hours of play and I was cutting out my POLY / MULTI hybrid after it went dead after 16 hours (max). In the long run, GUT / POLY plays better and is CHEAPER as it holds the tension and plays LONGER. Maybe the Yonex can be a SOFTER version of the MSV.

The reviews have been outstanding.