Serve the Jay Berger way?

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Yes, that is exactly what I was saying in #16.

Originally Posted by dlam

Then those video abr serve motion of Aggasi and Martin is that of starting at the trophy position
Berger looks a lot different
He seems to dangling the racket in a BS position to start and has no trophy position at all during the serve
No trophy position in the serve ?
How is that possible?

This is what I was saying in post #16. The Berger serve, starting on the shoulder, is what I am now calling a stage 1 serve. The trophy serve, a stage 2 serve, is next in the progression. A stage 3 serve is the abbreviated serve motion -- it is more continuous that the static trophy start position seen with the stage 2 serve.

Variations of the stage 3 serve include the Agassi & Martin serves seen previously in this thread. Other variations include Roddick's (standard) motion and the Serve Doctor's spring-loaded serve.

[rufus_smith]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

^ Yes, that is exactly what I was saying in #16.



This is what I was saying in post #16. The Berger serve, starting on the shoulder, is what I am now calling a stage 1 serve. The trophy serve, a stage 2 serve, is next in the progression. A stage 3 serve is the abbreviated serve motion -- it is more continuous that the static trophy start position seen with the stage 2 serve.

Variations of the stage 3 serve include the Agassi & Martin serves seen previously in this thread. Other variations include Roddick's (standard) motion and the Serve Doctor's spring-loaded serve.

I like this. Btw, there is a term "half-serve" I've seen seen used. That may or my not be stage 2.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by rufus_smith

I like this. Btw, there is a term "half-serve" I've seen seen used. That may or my not be stage 2.

Is that the half-court, half-grip, half- motion serve suggested by Salzenstein (or was it someone else)?

[SystemicAnomaly]

^^ Or perhaps you are referring to the half-serve pronation exercise by McCraw. He uses the "dirty diaper" finish that Salzenstein talks about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iONY6fcqZGg

.

[rufus_smith]

For example, at the of bottom page, gray box, "beginner" paragraph.

http://elderton.webfactional.com/med...PointServe.pdf

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ That description of the half-serve is too vague to really be useful. Hopefully, they have a more complete explanation or image elsewhere.


.

[Chas Tennis]

Technical -

There was a Tennis Channel Academy show, "USTA Player Development", broadcast April 2, 2013 in our area.

Jay Berger was included coaching the serve. See minute 26.

He discussed a point that I've been confused about regarding the 'back scratch'. He used a term that I had never heard before - "racket leaking" - with regard to the 'back scratch'.

He also mentions briefly internal shoulder rotation.

For the leg thrust phase of the serve where the stretch shortening cycle is being used:

1) Forearm-Racket in Line. The forearm and racket should be roughly in line and at a right angle to the upper arm when the leg thrust phase of the serve begins. When the shoulder rises due to the leg thrust and other motions this forearm-racket to upper arm angle causes the shoulder joint to externally rotate and stretch the internal shoulder rotators (lat & pec). When the forearm & racket are in a straight line & at 90° to the upper arm, the moment of inertia of the forearm-racket is maximized. As soon as the wrist breaks to allow the back scratch, the moment of inertia decreases sharply. The racket has not yet "leaked" according to Jay Berger's terminology.

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

.............................................
After the shoulder/clavicle serve is mastered, the next step in the progression is to develop a serve with the racket starting the "trophy position" -- the elbow starts with a 90 degree band and it (the elbow) is pulled back and is directly in line with the shoulder tilt.

I currently use this "trophy" serve for my right-handed serve. With this serve variation, the server should make certain that they achieve a good (deep) racket head drop (what some refer to as the backscratch position). Many servers do not achieve an adequate racket head drop.

= Trophy position

2) Forearm-Racket at an Angle. At some point after a good shoulder stretch is achieved, the wrist is allowed to let the racket drop down on the back - to the back scratch position. He calls this wrist joint motion 'letting the racket leak'. He discussed that the racket should leak but not too early because the stretch phase needs the forearm and racket more in a straight line. When they are in a straight line & at 90° to the upper arm, the moment of inertia of the forearm-racket is maximized. As soon as the wrist breaks to allow the back scratch, the moment of inertia decreases sharply. This can happen too early during the leg thrust before a good stretch is achieved.

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

.................................................. ..................................................
I currently use this "trophy" serve for my right-handed serve. With this serve variation, the server should make certain that they achieve a good (deep) racket head drop (what some refer to as the backscratch position). Many servers do not achieve an adequate racket head drop.
............................................
"Backscratch" position:

This video shows both the forearm-racket in a roughly straight line followed by the wrist joint motion allowing the racket to go more into the back scratch position. Type of serve unknown.
https://vimeo.com/63688133

These videos of another service motion show some variation and not as much wrist joint change for the racket drop. Racket is out to side and not behind the back. Type of serve unknown.
https://vimeo.com/63688134
Another similar serve.
https://vimeo.com/63709517

This cleared up a confusing phase of the serve for me as he identified two things that I have seen in high speed videos and explained what is going on and a critical piece of timing.