The TT Football Club

[Dave M]

Do you CFC fans think Torres has gotten a lot worse since his move or was he in decline (with hindsight) at Liverpool before he moved? He seems to lack confidence (understandable) but looks quite average on the ball.Movement off of it seems ok from what i've seen on tele or is ti just that Hazard etc have decided it's better not to pass to him?

[Dave M]

Originally Posted by Feña14

It's tough really, we had West Brom today, Juventus on Tuesday, Man City next weekend, Fulham the middle of next week, then West Ham on Saturday lunch time and Nordsjaelland a couple of days after that. Before going off to the Club World Cup, Leeds in the Carling Cup as soon as we get back and then the 4 games in 9 days you get over Christmas.

Ramires, Mikel and Torres are going to be running on fumes only half way into the season it seems.

Had not realised you'd managed to amass a pile up already, I can't help having images of Frank jnr scoring 3 against us then leaving happily for LA though.

[Feña14]

Originally Posted by Dave M

Do you CFC fans think Torres has gotten a lot worse since his move or was he in decline (with hindsight) at Liverpool before he moved? He seems to lack confidence (understandable) but looks quite average on the ball.Movement off of it seems ok from what i've seen on tele or is ti just that Hazard etc have decided it's better not to pass to him?

If i'm honest, i've never really thought he was as good as people made him out to be. No doubt he has got worse (the last year at Liverpool was when it started I think), but he was never as good as Villa or Drogba, whilst many people thought he was as good, or even better.

Originally Posted by Dave M

Had not realised you'd managed to amass a pile up already, I can't help having images of Frank jnr scoring 3 against us then leaving happily for LA though.

Haha, wouldn't mind that happening

The fixture pile up is fine, it happens every year and is a sign you're successful I think. It's an issue because we are so short in parts of the squad, 3 midfielders to last an entire season? Torres to play 70 odd games and get a goal every other game? Yeah, it was never going to happen.

[crosscourt]

Originally Posted by Ross K

RE Spurs/Gooners earlier, I believe the phrase is: 'Deja vu'... yep, we've been here before recently, haven't we? ... someone pass me the bottle of single malt rather quickly, if you don't mind.

I was at the Emirates yesterday. I have never seen a game that turned so completely on a sending off. Tottenham were in complete control and comfortably ahead, and they looked likely to score again. Arsenal had nothing to show. Then Ad****or was sent off and everything changed. With Defoe alone up front for Spurs Arsenal were able to crowd the midfield and overwhelm Huddlestone and the others. Then Arsenal got on top of the Spurs full backs and it was all over. The first Arsenal goal was a beautiful header.

Tottenham probably have better players. Loris is a very good keeper, Ad****or still looks likely to score goals and Bale is very good indeed. His goal was stunning. It isn't that he is very quick in a straight line - Lennon and Walcott are both quicker. But his control of the ball at high speed is amazing. For his goal he ran past the Arsenal defence easily but going sideways. Such was his control though that the ball might as well have been stationary for the shot. His balance is also terrific. He was by far the best payer on the pitch. Huddlestone is a strange player. He gets into the right places and reads the game well but doesn't do enough once he has the ball. Some of his free kicks and corners were very weak, though neither team did much with the dead ball.

In the end Arsenal just played well as a unit. They were up for the game -- once Ad****or had gone -- and nothing was going to stop them. They are the opposite of Tottenham who seemed to lack resilience yesterday.

Lennon, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Walcott all looked to be struggling. Walcott played well at times and got in behind the Spurs full backs very effectively. But even so he looked strangely lacking in the ability to impose himself in the game. The other two looked lost.

[NickC]

Originally Posted by Dave M

Do you CFC fans think Torres has gotten a lot worse since his move or was he in decline (with hindsight) at Liverpool before he moved? He seems to lack confidence (understandable) but looks quite average on the ball.Movement off of it seems ok from what i've seen on tele or is ti just that Hazard etc have decided it's better not to pass to him?

Torres is sh*t. Worse signing than Scheva, and one with a **** poor attitude too. His best was at Liverpool as you say because I think in his final half season there he just "lost it" and acted like he didn't want to play football anymore. I don't understand why Chelsea signed him, if they hadn't, they could have had a number of better strikers in their first team at the moment. My, that 50 million sure could be better used today, I think.

[Ross K]

Originally Posted by crosscourt

I was at the Emirates yesterday. I have never seen a game that turned so completely on a sending off. Tottenham were in complete control and comfortably ahead, and they looked likely to score again. Arsenal had nothing to show. Then Ad****or was sent off and everything changed. With Defoe alone up front for Spurs Arsenal were able to crowd the midfield and overwhelm Huddlestone and the others. Then Arsenal got on top of the Spurs full backs and it was all over. The first Arsenal goal was a beautiful header.

Tottenham probably have better players. Loris is a very good keeper, Ad****or still looks likely to score goals and Bale is very good indeed. His goal was stunning. It isn't that he is very quick in a straight line - Lennon and Walcott are both quicker. But his control of the ball at high speed is amazing. For his goal he ran past the Arsenal defence easily but going sideways. Such was his control though that the ball might as well have been stationary for the shot. His balance is also terrific. He was by far the best payer on the pitch. Huddlestone is a strange player. He gets into the right places and reads the game well but doesn't do enough once he has the ball. Some of his free kicks and corners were very weak, though neither team did much with the dead ball.

In the end Arsenal just played well as a unit. They were up for the game -- once Ad****or had gone -- and nothing was going to stop them. They are the opposite of Tottenham who seemed to lack resilience yesterday.

Lennon, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Walcott all looked to be struggling. Walcott played well at times and got in behind the Spurs full backs very effectively. But even so he looked strangely lacking in the ability to impose himself in the game. The other two looked lost.

Cheers S, very interesting to hear your pitch-side observations.

On a side-note: God knows what AVB was going on about in the press with his assertion Spurs controlled the entire game, etc. As the likes of the Sun have been completely out to get him from day 1, seems to me he's contributing - and it's utterly unnecessary - to the mounting pressure himself.

[Feña14]

Originally Posted by Ross K

Cheers S, very interesting to hear your pitch-side observations.

On a side-note: God knows what AVB was going on about in the press with his assertion Spurs controlled the entire game, etc. As the likes of the Sun have been completely out to get him from day 1, seems to me he's contributing - and it's utterly unnecessary - to the mounting pressure himself.

I was interested to see how he would do at Spurs, he said he learnt from his mistakes at Chelsea and he would change. From the outside it doesn't seem like he has.

[NickC]

Originally Posted by Feña14

I was interested to see how he would do at Spurs, he said he learnt from his mistakes at Chelsea and he would change. From the outside it doesn't seem like he has.

I don't think that's a fair assertion - at Chelsea his biggest problem was his inability to get through to the team and to really motivate them. There was a huge discord between him and the senior players in the team and when such a thing exists your days will always be numbered. Chelsea were a winning side under him but he wasn't able to effectively communicate with the team.

At Spurs, I haven't heard of any such discord, the only big thing I've noticed about Spurs every time I've watched them under AvB is that they always seem ill-prepared. As well, he's proved that his tactics suck when he doesn't have a plethora of world-class players to call upon.

What happened to him at Chelsea and the reasons for it are completely different from what's happening to him now. With Chelsea, it was down to his lack of communication. With Spurs, he's getting found out tactically.

[Feña14]

Originally Posted by NickC

I don't think that's a fair assertion - at Chelsea his biggest problem was his inability to get through to the team and to really motivate them. There was a huge discord between him and the senior players in the team and when such a thing exists your days will always be numbered. Chelsea were a winning side under him but he wasn't able to effectively communicate with the team.

At Spurs, I haven't heard of any such discord, the only big thing I've noticed about Spurs every time I've watched them under AvB is that they always seem ill-prepared. As well, he's proved that his tactics suck when he doesn't have a plethora of world-class players to call upon.

What happened to him at Chelsea and the reasons for it are completely different from what's happening to him now. With Chelsea, it was down to his lack of communication. With Spurs, he's getting found out tactically.

I thought his tactics against Arsenal were pretty good, going with 2 strikers was bold and what the Tottenham fans I know had been wanting to see. They were brilliant before the sending off.

I noticed he still crouches down on the touchline and someone commented how the players pay no attention to him on the side, which is a problem. I've no idea how his relationship is with the players, it seems to be good enough for now.

[NickC]

Originally Posted by Feña14

I thought his tactics against Arsenal were pretty good, going with 2 strikers was bold and what the Tottenham fans I know had been wanting to see. They were brilliant before the sending off.

I noticed he still crouches down on the touchline and someone commented how the players pay no attention to him on the side, which is a problem. I've no idea how his relationship is with the players, it seems to be good enough for now.

Interesting thoughts. Yeah Spurs were good for the first 20 minutes or so, but I think that had more to do with being a goal to the good against their rivals. Sometimes you don't need to be motivated to have a good start in a derby, you're fired up as is and you want to go out and impress. The 2 striker thing is down to AvB, as you say, but I think most managers these days would play a similar system against a team that lets you have time on the ball to play some nice football, and also because the squad is loaded with good strikers and attacking players. I certainly wouldn't play 1 striker in a derby match when 4th place is potentially at stake. Not doing so would be cowardly.

[Feña14]

Originally Posted by NickC

Interesting thoughts. Yeah Spurs were good for the first 20 minutes or so, but I think that had more to do with being a goal to the good against their rivals. Sometimes you don't need to be motivated to have a good start in a derby, you're fired up as is and you want to go out and impress. The 2 striker thing is down to AvB, as you say, but I think most managers these days would play a similar system against a team that lets you have time on the ball to play some nice football, and also because the squad is loaded with good strikers and attacking players. I certainly wouldn't play 1 striker in a derby match when 4th place is potentially at stake. Not doing so would be cowardly.

You can see it both ways I suppose we beat Arsenal and Tottenham in our derby games so far with one striker, and that was Torres! We pressed high up and played great in both games, without a doubt our 2 best performances of the year i'd say.

I wonder what Ross thinks of the bolder, 4-4-2 approach, it's a shame the sending off meant we couldn't see a whole 90 minutes of it to see if it's something that can work. Maybe playing Dempsey just off Defoe in a 4-4-1-1 would be a good compromise.

[Ross K]

Originally Posted by Feña14

You can see it both ways I suppose we beat Arsenal and Tottenham in our derby games so far with one striker, and that was Torres! We pressed high up and played great in both games, without a doubt our 2 best performances of the year i'd say.

I wonder what Ross thinks of the bolder, 4-4-2 approach, it's a shame the sending off meant we couldn't see a whole 90 minutes of it to see if it's something that can work. Maybe playing Dempsey just off Defoe in a 4-4-1-1 would be a good compromise.

It's a huge irony of course that all of us who wanted the dreaded 4-4-2 dispensed with (as favoured majorly by Redknapp) this season, were, come the Arsenal game, begging for AVB to go 4-4-2.

The sending off massively changed it up (the one team you don't want to be down to 10 men against is Arsenal), but, as others have noted, Spurs were looking pretty damn good prior to Ade's red card.

That said, with eleven players on the pitch, we've looked pretty damn good plenty of times this season for half a match or so, only to become utterly over-run. AVB's tactics and substitutions have to also be questioned somewhat.

Ultimately 4-4-2 isn't what I want to see, but, for now and minus the players we need to achieve something Porto-like or whatever, we'll accept anything that keeps us in shooting distance of that CL 4th spot.

[Feña14]

Originally Posted by Ross K

It's a huge irony of course that all of us who wanted the dreaded 4-4-2 dispensed with (as favoured majorly by Redknapp) this season, were, come the Arsenal game, begging for AVB to go 4-4-2.

The sending off massively changed it up (the one team you don't want to be down to 10 men against is Arsenal), but, as others have noted, Spurs were looking pretty damn good prior to Ade's red card.

That said, with eleven players on the pitch, we've looked pretty damn good plenty of times this season for half a match or so, only to become utterly over-run. AVB's tactics and substitutions have to also be questioned somewhat.

Ultimately 4-4-2 isn't what I want to see, but, for now and minus the players we need to achieve something Porto-like or whatever, we'll accept anything that keeps us in shooting distance of that CL 4th spot.

You'll be wanting Redknapp back before long then?

I think you need a great striker to play the 4-2-3-1, Defoe is probably a bit small and is mainly there for finishing. The villan of Saturday can do it, but as we saw, he's not someone you can trust

Same for Chelsea really, Torres does well in the build up, but he can't score. I think both teams have everything needed to play the formation, apart from a main man at the top.

[PureAlph4]

I think more and more top clubs are looking for that 360 degree centre forward, who can drop back into the buildup, play with his back to goal, hold up the ball, and be a predator who bangs them in. With the different challenge of the CL (especially away from home), a team can't get away with a more limited player up top alone.

Giroud has shown some promise for Arsenal, but he's nowhere near the complete player that Van Persie was for us. Besides the goals, the fact that Van Persie perfectly fit the Arsenal system is what made him such a huge loss. We've now got to play to Giroud's strengths (which we've started to do), rather than at the start of the season where it felt as if the rest of the team expected him to contribute the same as RVP did from that position (even if at a lower level).

[Ross K]

Agree with both ^ posts (apart from wanting Harry Redknapp back).

[PED]

Originally Posted by PureAlph4

We've now got to play to Giroud's strengths (which we've started to do), rather than at the start of the season where it felt as if the rest of the team expected him to contribute the same as RVP did from that position (even if at a lower level).

Good point, it's been awhile since we've had someone like this. He's fairly good with the ball at his feet as well though not in v Persie's league. Still he heads much better and it's nice to have another dimension in attack, especially now that Theo's is getting more accurate with his crosses. Before, it was endlessly trying to walk the ball into the net.

I'm still not totally sold on IPod but his work rate was good on the left on Saturday. Wish he had a bit more pace but he's got plenty of guile.

[Dave M]

We need a John Hartson, that's what i'm getting from tonights TV match

[Feña14]

Originally Posted by Dave M

We need a John Hartson, that's what i'm getting from tonights TV match

I know the feeling! It would be great if we still had Drogba, just to see what he would do with Mata, Hazard and Oscar. He didn't have that kind of service when he was here, i'd love to see him bullying both centre backs whilst they ran riot in the gaps.. ahh well.

I see the papers are laying into Chelsea already, describing how it's all fallen apart and Di Matteo will be gone soon. It's a load of crap, we're closer in the title race than I, or any 'pundit' thought at the start of the season. Whilst being in a fight to get out of the group stages of the Champions League was always likely, Shakhtar and Juventus are great teams.

The problems that the papers blame the manager for are stupid, Terry being missing and injured, Cole injured, Lampard injured, Torres as hopeless as ever, Essien and Meireles moved on. The squad is thin, hardly the managers fault.

[NickC]

Originally Posted by Feña14

I know the feeling! It would be great if we still had Drogba, just to see what he would do with Mata, Hazard and Oscar. He didn't have that kind of service when he was here, i'd love to see him bullying both centre backs whilst they ran riot in the gaps.. ahh well.

I see the papers are laying into Chelsea already, describing how it's all fallen apart and Di Matteo will be gone soon. It's a load of crap, we're closer in the title race than I, or any 'pundit' thought at the start of the season. Whilst being in a fight to get out of the group stages of the Champions League was always likely, Shakhtar and Juventus are great teams.

The problems that the papers blame the manager for are stupid, Terry being missing and injured, Cole injured, Lampard injured, Torres as hopeless as ever, Essien and Meireles moved on. The squad is thin, hardly the managers fault.

Yeah I don't think Roberto is going to be sacked, he'll be given a full season at the least; Roman owes it to him.

Though are you starting to see what I was getting at regarding letting Meireles and Ess leave? Raul would have fit in perfectly right now and Ess is doing alright in Spain, it seems he's fit in their system better than Modric has. Chelsea is desperate for experience at the center of the park. And Essien can cover in defense too. Cole's off to PSG, Lamps is gone in January, and now the boss will go too if the press are right Lukaku should come back. So should de Brunye.


(but to be fair Essien needed to get out of England, he's still young-ish and great when fit, but all those years in the Premier League have taken a toll on his knees. Perhaps a refresher in Spain is all he needed, perhaps he'll be able to last a season there. With that being said, Chelsea were dumb to let him leave after a decent preseason and fit, I personally think he'll be this year's "Sneijder", meaning the cog that just makes the team work infinitely better, straight into the Champions League title like Mou did before at Inter, he got Wesley at a bargin price and he just was the piece that was missing to make the team work. Madrid need an all-action defender/midfielder who's got speed, size, a wicked shot off both feet, and the ability to move forward. He's played left back before under Mou and he could fit in as a wingback at Madrid, kind of like Coentrao who tends to drift into the center of the park to help with the attack)

Madrid didn't need Modric, his best role is already taken up by Alonso and now he's forced out on the wing, where creativity goes to die. Essien fits in wherever Madrid need him and adds a rocket shot from range.

[Feña14]

I agree they shouldn't of left, simply because the numbers just aren't there anymore. I can't think of any other top team with 2 midfielders in the first team squad (3 if you include Lampard, who looks like being weeks away from going).

I've no problem in letting Essien and Meireles go if they were replaced by younger players, but that didn't happen. Personally i'd like to see Newcastle start doing well, Cabaye is out till next year so maybe if Anita and Tiote form a nice partnership they could be tempted to let him leave for the right price. It was amazing they held on to all of their big players last summer, something has to give, especially when you hear Ashley wants to bring in the likes of Debuchy, Sissoko, Granqvist and Remy.