Single handed backhand for juniors...

[NLBwell]

Originally Posted by BirdieLane

So of our 100000 players, 10000 have 1BH and 90000 have 2BH.

So at the pro level players that made it are:

1BH: 23/10000 = 0.2300%
2BH: 77/90000 = 0.0856%

So, with my (inflated?) 10% of juniors playing with 1BH assumption, the 1BH player has a 3x better chance of making top 100!? (More if my 10% is high, less if my 10% is low)

Im sure there are flaws here, so have at it.

I think you may have a good point.
My theory is that for the tiny portion of the extremely talented that could become pros, the variety of possible shots and the processes that you have to go through as you develop to have a really good one-handed backhand help the player progress.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

you think Fed didn't have to handle big servers to win all those tournaments?

Well, Federer is 18th on the tour this year in % of points won when returning 1st serves. He's 15th in % of points won against 2nd serves. He's 16th in % of return games won.

And that's with a ground game that is clearly superior to all but a few players.

Of course Fed's ROS is awesome by almost any standard-- but it seems pretty clear that it isn't one of the strongest points of his game.

[boramiNYC]

what about in his peak years? his style didn't change much despite some lost ground on confidence recently due to many possible things. in those years what I remember that was striking was he would so often out ace the best servers of that period due to his phenomenal return game. it was difficult to ace him due to great footwork and the reach 1hbh provided. I think his bh return could have been better if his swing had been more flat and aggressive like gasquet, but he has done well with 1hbh and I doubt his achievement could have been better or even equal if he had 2hbh.

[5263]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

you think Fed didn't have to handle big servers to win all those tournaments?

and you think his Bh rtn against power serves was an asset in those wins??

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by 5263

and you think his Bh rtn against power serves was an asset in those wins??

don't know how aggressively a 2hbh could return those power serves but any 2hbh that could have returned those serves most likely were due to the athleticism not 2hbh. against a server who can paint the lines the short reach of 2hbh can be a liability. at pro level accurate serves are not uncommon tho in junior it's much more rare. that's why lots of successful juniors stand no chance in pro level. 1hbh is not a liability for juniors not learning it well is the liability.

case in point, god forbid, if an aspiring junior learns 1hbh from someone like Oscar he would stand no chance against even good high school players. but if he learns and develops something like gasquet, almagro, Feds, he will have no problem at any level.

[doctor dennis]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

@dozu

The whole point of my asking this question was because mini-tennis removes the issue of high balls, at least through Red and Orange. Interestingly, when I was doing some research last night I found that Red (8&u) the ball never bounced above shoulder height for the contact, Orange (9&u) the same, ball might bounce above but never required a contact above shoulder.
Green (10&u) and Yellow (11+) however, were a slightly different story - seems to me the development of the child physically doesn't stay ahead of the compression of the ball (speaking generally) so they have to deal with higher bouncing balls for their height at Green and Yellow, relative to their height at Red and Orange.

My thoughts on the grip are therefore confirmed (I think) - eastern (knuckle on 1) to begin and allowing it to slide around to knuckle on 1/8 or 8 as required by the move to green/yellow.

Cheers

My daughter currently plays mini orange tournaments. In the few years she's been playing I've seen two boys with one handed backhands.
One is actually part of the aegon futures. His backhand is amazing. Its quite refreshing to see that his coach went against the norm and produced a solid one hander.
I think the one handed backhand will cease to exist in 10 years however. I do Hope not though.

DD

[5263]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

against a server who can paint the lines the short reach of 2hbh can be a liability.

absolutely not, as any 2 hander can go to the 1 handed slice anytime he
needs to...where the 1 hander has to go right out of the box against big serves.

Pretty common acceptance that the 2 greatest returners over the last 25 yrs
both had 2 handers and showed this ability during some of the biggest serving
tennis has seen.

[FrisbeeFool]

Originally Posted by 5263

absolutely not, as any 2 hander can go to the 1 handed slice anytime he
needs to...where the 1 hander has to go right out of the box against big serves.

Pretty common acceptance that the 2 greatest returners over the last 25 yrs
both had 2 handers and showed this ability during some of the biggest serving
tennis has seen.

It's a silly debate anyways, you can be successful with a one or two hander. It's all about personal preference. What do you mean by, "the one-hander has to go right out of the box against big serves"?

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by 5263

absolutely not, as any 2 hander can go to the 1 handed slice anytime he
needs to...where the 1 hander has to go right out of the box against big serves.

that's the premise I don't agree with. with the right footwork and technique 1hbh doesn't have to go to slice right away for returns. if they have to there is some flaw. and I have to say the best 1hbh the world has seen is yet to come.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

what about in his peak years? his style didn't change much despite some lost ground on confidence recently due to many possible things. in those years what I remember that was striking was he would so often out ace the best servers of that period due to his phenomenal return game. it was difficult to ace him due to great footwork and the reach 1hbh provided. I think his bh return could have been better if his swing had been more flat and aggressive like gasquet, but he has done well with 1hbh and I doubt his achievement could have been better or even equal if he had 2hbh.

You're right, I don't know about the peak years. And it occurs to me that some of the players ahead of Fed in % return games/points probably play more on clay, and against worse opposition, which would inflate their return numbers somewhat (Berlocq for example).

Still, my (totally armchair) perspective is that Fed's return works extremely well for getting the ball in play, but that he's less able to be aggressive with it than someone like Djokovic or Murray. But my perception comes from watching a bunch of matches on TV and nothing else, so it could definitely be misguided.

Asking whether Fed would have done better with a 2hbh is like asking whether he'd do better if he were 6'4''-- he'd be a different player. I do think if that you grafted the returns of a Djokovic or a Murray or a Ferrer onto his game he probably would be better in certain circumstances.

[dennis10is]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

It's a silly debate anyways, you can be successful with a one or two hander. It's all about personal preference. What do you mean by, "the one-hander has to go right out of the box against big serves"?

Not silly, very serious. Don't you know that in every aspects of living and being a human being there can be one and only one superior way of doing or believing?

One religion, one economic system, one politica party, one way to play tennis, one brand one men's thong underwear.

Clearly, my way is the best and everybody else is inferior and it is my job to tell you that you are wrong.

Rinse and repeat.

[5263]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

It's a silly debate anyways, you can be successful with a one or two hander. It's all about personal preference. What do you mean by, "the one-hander has to go right out of the box against big serves"?

What I mean is in most matches with a good server against the best one handers,
the one hander is left to block, chip and slice to try and deal with the big serves.
2 handers don't labor under this limitation near as often. It's not uncommon at
all to see Agassi or DJ to rip back fast serves with nice TS Bh rtns. Far more
uncommon for even the best 1 handers.

[5263]

Originally Posted by dennis10is

Not silly, very serious. Don't you know that in every aspects of living and being a human being there can be one and only one superior way of doing or believing?.

be as sarcastic as you like, but the best returners of the modern men's game
have been 2 handers.
I like the 1 hander plenty, but for me, this is an area that is very important given
how many big servers there are.
Imo the one hander is superior in ways too, but none that are as important.
Are you suggesting there are no pros and cons to each?

[Cheetah]

Isn't Youznhy in the top 4 or 5 of return of service points won? He has a 1hbh.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Isn't Youznhy in the top 4 or 5 of return of service points won? He has a 1hbh.

Career or last year?
I don't know, but that stat wouldn't really show too much imo, since
most rtn pts won are off second serves anyway.

[dennis10is]

Originally Posted by 5263

be as sarcastic as you like, but the best returners of the modern men's game
have been 2 handers.
I like the 1 hander plenty, but for me, this is an area that is very important given
how many big servers there are.
Imo the one hander is superior in ways too, but none that are as important.
Are you suggesting there are no pros and cons to each?

Can I join your crusade (or do you prefer jihad) for the final solution to the 1bh blight?

2 handedness is next to Godliness. So say we all.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by 5263

Career or last year?
I don't know, but that stat wouldn't really show too much imo, since
most rtn pts won are off second serves anyway.

2012 2nd Serve Return Points Won
Points Won Total Points % Matches
1. Andy Murray 1374 2450 56 72
2. Novak Djokovic 1515 2718 56 87
3. Rafael Nadal 756 1378 55 48
4. David Ferrer 1390 2555 54 91
5. Mikhail Youzhny 875 1635 54 54

Career 2nd Serve Return Points Won
Points Won Total Points % Matches
1. Alberto Berasategui 7687 13658 56 477
2. Andre Agassi 16704 29909 56 899
3. Patrick McEnroe 4681 8449 55 251
4. Rafael Nadal 11512 20799 55 705
5. Thomas Muster 11092 20083 55 625
6. Michael Chang 14990 27181 55 810
7. Andy Murray 8561 15542 55 502
8. Carlos Costa 7369 13387 55 431
9. Byron Black 8293 15069 55 501
10. David Nalbandian 9831 17994 55 564


2012 1st Serve Return Points Won
Points Won Total Points % Matches
1. Rafael Nadal 870 2299 38 48
2. Novak Djokovic 1500 4238 35 87
3. Gilles Simon 1105 3238 34 68
4. Juan Monaco 893 2624 34 58
5. David Ferrer 1347 3974 34 91
6. Flavio Cipolla 563 1663 34 40
7. Carlos Berlocq 824 2449 34 56
8. Kei Nishikori 825 2485 33 55
9. Benoit Paire 893 2739 33 52
10. Marin Cilic 900 2774 32 58
11. Andy Murray 1212 3770 32 72
12. Marcel Granollers 705 2218 32 46
13. Richard Gasquet 915 2885 32 64
14. Fabio Fognini 693 2190 32 46
15. Radek Stepanek 667 2130 31 50
16. Stanislas Wawrinka 863 2762 31 55
17. Guillermo Garcia-Lopez 645 2080 31 45
18. Roger Federer 1259 4063 31 83
19. Fernando Verdasco 790 2556 31 54
20. Mikhail Youzhny 822 2667 31 54

Career 1st Serve Return Points Won
Points Won Total Points % Matches
1. Guillermo Coria 5374 14921 36 332
2. Magnus Gustafsson 8363 24423 34 539
3. Jordi Arrese 3825 11279 34 246
4. Rafael Nadal 10935 32249 34 705
5. Filippo Volandri 4858 14413 34 365
6. Slava Dosedel 5953 17685 34 383
7. Andy Murray 8130 24153 34 502
8. David Ferrer 10939 32517 34 734
9. Tomas Carbonell 4843 14410 34 314
10. Alberto Berasategui 7435 22185 34 477
11. Nikolay Davydenko 11284 33774 33 751
12. Juan Ignacio Chela 9253 27729 33 603
13. Karol Kucera 7495 22540 33 537
14. Novak Djokovic 8954 26943 33 592
15. Stefan Edberg 7449 22544 33 492
16. Juan Monaco 6553 19833 33 448
17. Guillermo Canas 6914 20930 33 447
18. Gilbert Schaller 3483 10576 33 245
19. Andrei Chesnokov 4614 14030 33 341
20. Brad Gilbert 3474 10641 33 229
21. Roger Federer 16757 51357 33 1076

[5263]

Originally Posted by dennis10is

Can I join your crusade (or do you prefer jihad) for the final solution to the 1bh blight?

2 handedness is next to Godliness. So say we all.

Not sure what you misplaced sarcastic aggression is about. Talking about
over the top reactions?? If this is an anti MTM thing, you may want to
reconsider, as Oscar seems to prefer to teach the one hander.

If someone wants a 2hander, I'm glad to help and teach it. I'm just merely
stating that I would not encourage it over the 2 hander for jr who is looking to
be his best; assuming they are trying to make a decision on this.
Feel free to mention all the reasons you prefer the 1 hander. I guess you play
with it?
I don't see you badgering the folks making their case for the 1 hander...so
clearly you are biased in that direction for some reason, right?
I use both myself, along with a lefty Fh at times : )

[5263]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

2012 1st Serve Return Points Won
Points Won Total Points % Matches
1. Rafael Nadal 870 2299 38 48
2. Novak Djokovic 1500 4238 35 87
3. Gilles Simon 1105 3238 34 68
4. Juan Monaco 893 2624 34 58
5. David Ferrer 1347 3974 34 91
6. Flavio Cipolla 563 1663 34 40
7. Carlos Berlocq 824 2449 34 56
8. Kei Nishikori 825 2485 33 55
9. Benoit Paire 893 2739 33 52
10. Marin Cilic 900 2774 32 58
11. Andy Murray 1212 3770 32 72
12. Marcel Granollers 705 2218 32 46
13. Richard Gasquet 915 2885 32 64
14. Fabio Fognini 693 2190 32 46
15. Radek Stepanek 667 2130 31 50
16. Stanislas Wawrinka 863 2762 31 55
17. Guillermo Garcia-Lopez 645 2080 31 45
18. Roger Federer 1259 4063 31 83
19. Fernando Verdasco 790 2556 31 54
20. Mikhail Youzhny 822 2667 31 54

Ok, this one is reasonable, since we are talking about 1hander vs big serves.
...what do you see?
See any 1 handers in the top 10?
Flavio who has little data against big servers, right?
Anyone I'm missing?
Even this stat can be misleading, but I guess the best we have.

I looked at the better ones at the top like DJ and Ferrer and their % of pts won
against big servers like Fed and Delpo were 10-20% higher than Youzhny's at #20.
Now 10% may not sound like much, but that was nearly twice as good in many
cases. Like where Youzhny's 12% against Fed vs DJ's 22-24% against Fed.
Just evidence though, not proof of course.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by 5263

Ok, this one is reasonable, since we are talking about 1hander vs big serves.
...what do you see?
See any 1 handers in the top 10?
Flavio who has little data against big servers, right?
Anyone I'm missing?
Even this stat can be misleading, but I guess the best we have.

I looked at the better ones at the top like DJ and Ferrer and their % of pts won
against big servers like Fed and Delpo were 10-20% higher than Youzhny's at #20.
Now 10% may not sound like much, but that was nearly twice as good in many
cases. Like where Youzhny's 12% against Fed vs DJ's 22-24% against Fed.
Just evidence though, not proof of course.

I'm not saying anything really. Just providing some #'s in case ppl want to use them for argument's sake.

only youznhy in top 10 for 2nd serves.
the other 1 handers seem to be in clumps toward the lower half of the top 20's.

Maybe the stats might look different at lower levels such as 6.0 / open players. Idk.
I like my 1hbh because it's cool.