MTM by Oscar Wegner-1HBH

[psv255]

Originally Posted by J011yroger

Anyone?

Bueller?

J

I have a couple backhands in this vid (also posted elsewhere, I apologize).
I remember I was focusing on lifting upward/ (as opposed to pulling back) as I was swinging forward. This is the result.
http://youtu.be/QzqP71zyvWU

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

no bhupaes, biomechanically Oscars approach is so fundamentally off the mark it'll waste too much useless typing to address thoroughly.

However in short, the push off from the front leg is not a requirement for ssc of the shoulder. ssc of shoulder can be activated by a number of ways even with the front leg fully extended and supporting the whole body weight. the main problem with not having the weight on the front foot is there is no stopping the torso rotation near the contact point causing the opening up the shoulder and over rotating.

I have no motive to discredit Oscar, really I don't care, but the way mtmers are willing to have their own eyes and minds prejudiced by something other than quality tennis instruction is pretty disappointing to say the least.

Very sad. They come up with weird explanations trying to see whether even a thousandth of what he said can be remotely correct. They make up explanations on his behalf because they just cannot face up to the facts.

[J011yroger]

Originally Posted by psv255

I have a couple backhands in this vid (also posted elsewhere, I apologize).
I remember I was focusing on lifting upward/ (as opposed to pulling back) as I was swinging forward. This is the result.
http://youtu.be/QzqP71zyvWU

I understand that you have to moderate a bit against the wall, but it looks to me as if you have more natural snap in your topspin backhand than your forehand.

So there is one decent looking backhand with some pop in it for a proponent of MTM, who will step up for traditional instruction and show the products of that?

Come on people, don't be scared.

Show me the money!

J

[bhupaes]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

no bhupaes, biomechanically Oscars approach is so fundamentally off the mark it'll waste too much useless typing to address thoroughly.

However in short, the push off from the front leg is not a requirement for ssc of the shoulder. ssc of shoulder can be activated by a number of ways even with the front leg fully extended and supporting the whole body weight. the main problem with not having the weight on the front foot is there is no stopping the torso rotation near the contact point causing the opening up the shoulder and over rotating.

The push off the front foot definitely enhances the explosive effect - and I mean the push off in the way Guga and Gasquet do it. I agree that hip and upper body rotation are the primary movements in the 1HBH. IMO, the braking effect due to the "push back" enhances the explosiveness. It doesn't mean that the player will actually move backwards, especially if the player has to run forwards to execute the backhand. Of course, if one is illustrating the mechanism by hitting hand fed balls from a fixed spot, there may be a noticeable tendency to move back.

I have no motive to discredit Oscar, really I don't care, but the way mtmers are willing to have their own eyes and minds prejudiced by something other than quality tennis instruction is pretty disappointing to say the least.

Sure, you are entitled to your views, and as gentlemen, we can agree to disagree. Personally, I have benefited a lot from Oscar's teachings. I find his insights absolutely fascinating, since it opens up a way of looking at the game that is unique and rewarding.

[julian]

Originally Posted by J011yroger

I have an idea.

Why doesn't everyone post a video of their 1hbh and explain how they hit it so that we can see the results of your philosophy, and know that you are not just parroting crap you read somewhere else?

J

It should be a separate thread.
Next stage would be discuss forehand and serve by MTM.
Next we will have a claim about half million clicks

[JW10S]

Originally Posted by J011yroger

So there is one decent looking backhand with some pop in it for a proponent of MTM, who will step up for traditional instruction and show the products of that?

You too have fallen for the MTM propoganda. According to them it's either MTM or it's traditional. That's wrong. There is such thing as modern instruction that uses none of MTM's tenets.

Just saw this, and the original vid is just too silly to even comment on...

[psv255]

Originally Posted by J011yroger

So there is one decent looking backhand with some pop in it for a proponent of MTM, who will step up for traditional instruction and show the products of that?

Come on people, don't be scared.

Show me the money!

J

Jo11y, with all due respect, i'm not a proponent of mtm i believe that it is an occasionally valuable resource for specfic groups of tennis players and only in very specific cases. I learned my bh with more traditional concepts.

[5263]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

There's a good video interview with Larri Passos, on tennisplayer.net where he talks about teaching Guga the one-hander.

Is that the one where he states how good Guga was when he first met him at
age 14 and convinced the parents he could make a living playing tennis?

[sureshs]

Jolly has not fallen for anything. He is a high-level player who likes to pull everyone's legs.

[5263]

Originally Posted by JW10S

According to them it's either MTM or it's traditional. That's wrong.

Yes it's wrong and We don't say it. If you want to speak for MTM, it would help
to get it right.
Probably better to stick to what you know.

[dennis10is]

Originally Posted by J011yroger

I understand that you have to moderate a bit against the wall, but it looks to me as if you have more natural snap in your topspin backhand than your forehand.

So there is one decent looking backhand with some pop in it for a proponent of MTM, who will step up for traditional instruction and show the products of that?

Come on people, don't be scared.

Show me the money!

J

I'm laughing my *** off watching Oscar demonstrate. As a 1.0 I don't feel I'm qualified to comment but from my lowly position, I find his strokes hilarious. Of course, much worthier tennis players will come along to comment. So, as a right hander, the backhand is when you hit the ball on your left side? After 30 years I still get the two strokes confused.

[J011yroger]

Originally Posted by JW10S

You too have fallen for the MTM propoganda. According to them it's either MTM or it's traditional. That's wrong. There is such thing as modern instruction that uses none of MTM's tenets.

Just saw this, and the original vid is just too silly to even comment on...

I wouldn't say that.

I am not particularly gung-ho on anybody's instruction. I do however try to see things from other points of view.

My goal is to look and listen with an open mind, and see if anything makes sense, or I like anything.

I have found that it is difficult to learn if all you do is try to convince people that you are right.

J

[J011yroger]

Originally Posted by psv255

Jo11y, with all due respect, i'm not a proponent of mtm i believe that it is an occasionally valuable resource for specfic groups of tennis players and only in very specific cases. I learned my bh with more traditional concepts.

Ok, so you are likely in the same boat as I.

I have run into a handful of people who could seriously benefit from listening to what Wegner preaches, but for the most part think it would be counter productive to most who are looking to progress to something more than intermediate recreational level.

J

[J011yroger]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Jolly has not fallen for anything. He is a high-level player who likes to pull everyone's legs.

J

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by J011yroger

Ok, so you are likely in the same boat as I.

I have run into a handful of people who could seriously benefit from listening to what Wegner preaches, but for the most part think it would be counter productive to most who are looking to progress to something more than intermediate recreational level.

J

That may be true for some of his other tips, but this backhand video is wrong for every level.

[J011yroger]

Originally Posted by sureshs

That may be true for some of his other tips, but this backhand video is wrong for every level.

Show me the money!

J

[arche3]

Originally Posted by treblings

was it deleted because he agreed with you???

Ha! yes. The TTW mods knew that if it were made public there would be mass hysteria. In my moment of weakness I posted what should be never said...

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by bhupaes

Biomechanically speaking, I believe this is a loading mechanism that everyone probably exploits instinctively, and Oscar simply was observant enough to notice this happening. The pushing up or back off the front foot that precedes or coincides with the forward swing will activate the stretch-contraction reflex in the shoulder, providing explosive power for the forward swing.

While we understand what you are saying here, this part is not technically correct.
No ssc action would be contributing to power while pulling back on a 1hbh. ssc is triggered by a stretch in one opposite direction and then a release in the opposite direction.

[bhupaes]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

While we understand what you are saying here, this part is not technically correct.
No ssc action would be contributing to power while pulling back on a 1hbh. ssc is triggered by a stretch in one opposite direction and then a release in the opposite direction.

You are right about that - I used the incorrect technical term to describe what's going on (and was waiting for someone to point it out after posting, ha ha). I understand now (after some shadow 1hbh swings) the feeling of how this push contributes to power - mainly momentum transfer that enhances the contraction part, I am guessing.

[sureshs]

Oscar says the same thing on his website:

After you have this movement well grooved in, get someone to toss gentle balls to your backhand. Lift the ball well over the net and finish all the way, perhaps exaggerating the lift, and getting your balance by pulling away from the ball and up. Especially if you are too close to the ball, pulling back will give you plenty of room to swing, with your arm extending towards the target and then across towards the right.

This type movement combination has been shunned by conventional tennis teaching, that tells you to step forward into the hit and stay down. This, unfortunately, destroys the natural acceleration of the arm. Try it both ways, and you will notice the difference.


I have a feeling this is again one of those legacy items from the transition period. In the wood era, it was necessary to stay down and step into the ball to get any meaningful power. Today, rackets are more powerful, and also, as Federer discovered against Nadal, high-bouncing slow balls are common to the backhand even on grass and hard courts. So, while there is a classic video of Federer with his back foot almost kneeling on the ground, he also hits backhands in a more upright position. So it is no longer necessary to adhere to the stay down advice very strictly. He could have just said that, instead of saying the other things like going backward. He confuses the finish which will result in the body rising with a backward movement of the body during the hit, similar to the confusion on the forehand about pulling away before impact instead of the reality of finishing the swing after hitting solidly through the ball.