Lew Hoad-A discussion on his career

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

The New York Times reports the FINAL on January 2, 1960.

Dan, I still doubt that the Melbourne r.r. of 1959/1960 should count for 1959.

I do know f.i. that the 1978/1979 AO, which ended on January 1st, did count for 1979 not 1978.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

It had less prestige than the the other two championship tours, and lacked Gonzales and Hoad played only part of it. The Roland Garros event was part of the Ampol series, not the Perrier.

Dan, I agree that the Perrier Trophy was not as important as the world tour (s). But it yet was rather important since the arguably four best claycourters of that time were participating and it was played over three months.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

It had less prestige than the the other two championship tours, and lacked Gonzales and Hoad played only part of it. The Roland Garros event was part of the Ampol series, not the Perrier.

Dan, Hoad did play the greatest part of the series and withdraw because of an injury. That does not minimize the value of the event.

[kiki]

The Bobby&Danny show never ends
Amazing
Greatest rivalry of all time

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Dan, I still doubt that the Melbourne r.r. of 1959/1960 should count for 1959.

I do know f.i. that the 1978/1979 AO, which ended on January 1st, did count for 1979 not 1978.

The bonus money for 1959 was distributed immediately after the Kooyong event on January 1, so this was the final event of the Ampol 1959 series.
There was no Ampol tour for 1960, or bonus pool, as Ampol and Qantas withdrew their involvement with the Kramer group after Hoad announced his semi-retirement.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Dan, I agree that the Perrier Trophy was not as important as the world tour (s). But it yet was rather important since the arguably four best claycourters of that time were participating and it was played over three months.

I think that all of the players spent their best efforts on the world championship tour, which included Roland Garros but not the Perrier.
The list I compiled above was related to major clay TOURNAMENTS, which resulted in a 7 to 2 edge for Hoad against Rosewall.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

I think that all of the players spent their best efforts on the world championship tour, which included Roland Garros but not the Perrier.
The list I compiled above was related to major clay TOURNAMENTS, which resulted in a 7 to 2 edge for Hoad against Rosewall.

Dan, It's just your flaw to underrate Perrier and maybe other events. Spending the best efforts on the world championship tour does NOT mean the players did not try in other events such as Perrier Trophy.

Nowadays the players concentrate to the GS tournaments but they still try to give their best in other events including the end-year masters.

I remember you did value Hoad's 1962 Facis series win as a plus in his career. Facis was similary to Perrier.

You should finally admit that Hoad had a terrible series of defeats in the Perrier series just as Rosewall played a terrible series against Gonzalez in the 1960 World Tour.

Taking away the Perrier series wins from Rosewall (16:1 on clay) is rather mean. I think you don't want to argue in a mean way...

But I maybe can do you a favour in telling you that one of Hoad's three wins in the Perrier series was a 6-0,6-1 victory against Segura...

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Dan, It's just your flaw to underrate Perrier and maybe other events. Spending the best efforts on the world championship tour does NOT mean the players did not try in other events such as Perrier Trophy.

Nowadays the players concentrate to the GS tournaments but they still try to give their best in other events including the end-year masters.

I remember you did value Hoad's 1962 Facis series win as a plus in his career. Facis was similary to Perrier.

You should finally admit that Hoad had a terrible series of defeats in the Perrier series just as Rosewall played a terrible series against Gonzalez in the 1960 World Tour.

Taking away the Perrier series wins from Rosewall (16:1 on clay) is rather mean. I think you don't want to argue in a mean way...

But I maybe can do you a favour in telling you that one of Hoad's three wins in the Perrier series was a 6-0,6-1 victory against Segura...

Good point. By 1962, Hoad's conditioning and play had deteriorated to the point where his victories at Adelaide, the Facis, the 1964 New Zealand tour, while not the premiere events in the world, were the best he could accomplish, although he regained good form in the 14 to 0 tour against Laver in 1963.
The 1960 tour by Rosewall against Gonzales was for the world crown, more important by far than the Perrier. I doubt that Hoad was concerned about the Perrier in 1958, a year when he played in two world championship tours, and won almost $200,000, by far the most in pro tennis.
I have also excluded the 1957 Europe tour, in which Hoad won (perhaps on clay) 6 to 3 against Rosewall.
I have listed the major clay TOURNAMENT results, which were 7 to 2 for Hoad on clay against Rosewall.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

The Bobby&Danny show never ends
Amazing
Greatest rivalry of all time

kiki, Yes, it's the ultimate showdown. It's Dan vs. Bobby but properly it's Hoad vs. Rosewall who play a five setter. Hoad (but not Dan!) won the fourth set by 6-0! We actually are in the tiebreak of the fifth set, Rosewall leading 5:4...

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Good point. By 1962, Hoad's conditioning and play had deteriorated to the point where his victories at Adelaide, the Facis, the 1964 New Zealand tour, while not the premiere events in the world, were the best he could accomplish, although he regained good form in the 14 to 0 tour against Laver in 1963.
The 1960 tour by Rosewall against Gonzales was for the world crown, more important by far than the Perrier. I doubt that Hoad was concerned about the Perrier in 1958, a year when he played in two world championship tours, and won almost $200,000, by far the most in pro tennis.
I have also excluded the 1957 Europe tour, in which Hoad won (perhaps on clay) 6 to 3 against Rosewall.
I have listed the major clay TOURNAMENT results, which were 7 to 2 for Hoad on clay against Rosewall.

Dan, You insinuate that Hoad did not have a professional attitude in not trying in "lesser" events. Perrier was the preparation for the French Pro. Why should he tank matches?

The world tour ended in April. Perrier started in August. The second "tour" consisted of only five or six tournaments. Please give me better arguments!

How often will you tell me that Hoad was 7:2 in tournaments on clay (I doubt if you have the correct number, see Geneva, 1962)?. I'm sure that Perrier was more important than a few of those tournaments f i. Australian Hardcourts...

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Dan, You insinuate that Hoad did not have a professional attitude in not trying in "lesser" events. Perrier was the preparation for the French Pro. Why should he tank matches?

The world tour ended in April. Perrier started in August. The second "tour" consisted of only five or six tournaments. Please give me better arguments!

How often will you tell me that Hoad was 7:2 in tournaments on clay (I doubt if you have the correct number, see Geneva, 1962)?. I'm sure that Perrier was more important than a few of those tournaments f i. Australian Hardcourts...

Geneva on clay? How do we know?
Hoad's record was below average for the 1958 and 1959 European tour, except for Roland Garros which was part of the Ampol series.
The five tournaments of the 1958 Ampol series were the most prestigious of the year.
Hoad played much more tennis than anyone in 1958 and 1959, putting his best efforts into the big money championships.
As I stated earlier, he won about $10 million in today's dollars from about 400 matches between July 1957 and January 1, 1960, by far the most of the pre-open generation of players. His back would not allow a 100% effort in every event.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

kiki, Yes, it's the ultimate showdown. It's Dan vs. Bobby but properly it's Hoad vs. Rosewall who play a five setter. Hoad (but not Dan!) won the fourth set by 6-0! We actually are in the tiebreak of the fifth set, Rosewall leading 5:4...

So hopefully it will be over soon

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by kiki

So hopefully it will be over soon

Sorry.
In acknowledgement of Bobby's concerns, I have compiled a definitive list of Hoad/Rosewall clay matches, giving the unknown surfaces an asterisked list of their own.

Hoad vs. Rosewall on clay in confirmed clay settings:

1) 1952 Australian Hardcourt final: Hoad df. Rosewall 2-6, 6-1, 1-6, 6-2, 11-9
2) 1953 Australian Hardcourt semi-final: Hoad df. Rosewall 6-1, 2-6, 6-1, 6-8, 7-5
3) 1955 New South Wales Hardcourt final: Hoad df. Rosewall 6-3, 6-3
4) 1957 The Hague (red shale) final: Hoad df. Rosewall in five-set marathon
5) 1957 Cairo final: Hoad df. Rosewall in five-set marathon
6) 1958 Roland Garros final: Rosewall df. Hoad 3-6, 6-2, 6-4, 6-0 (Hoad injured during match)
7) 1959 Roland Garros 3rd place: Hoad df. Rosewall 6-3, 4-6, 6-2
1960 Roland Garros final: Rosewall df. Hoad 6-2, 2-6, 6-2, 6-1
9) 1960 Tokyo (first Japanese Professional Championship): Hoad df. Rosewall 6-2, 0-6, 3-6, 6-1, 13-11

In addition, some of the following may have been on clay:

1) 1957 European tour: Hoad wins 6 matches to 3
2) 1958 Perrier: Rosewall wins 4 matches to 1
3) 1959 Rome: Rosewall df. Hoad 5-7, 6-4, 6-1
4) 1960 Geneva: Hoad df. Rosewall 6-4, 6-1
5) 1962 Geneva: Rosewall df. Hoad 6-3, 7-5
6) 1963 Poertschach: Rosewall df. Hoad 6-4, 6-3
7) 1963 Cannes Indoor: Rosewall df. Hoad 7-5, 6-3
1964 Cannes Indoor: Rosewall df. Hoad 14-12, 6-4

Assuming that all of the above asterisked matches were played on clay, the final tally head-to-head lifetime on clay was Hoad 15, Rosewall 14, Rosewall winning all of the matches after Hoad's game declined after 1960.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by kiki

So hopefully it will be over soon

Well, there is another list.
Hoad vs. Rosewall ON GRASS, which I know you have been waiting for.

1953 Eastern Grasscourts semi: Hoad wins 6-4, 6-1, 5-7, 6-4
1953 Victorian final: Hoad wins 9-7, 8-6, 3-6, 6-3
1953 NSW final: Hoad wins 8-6, 4-6, 9-7, 10-8
1953 Queens Club final: Hoad wins 8-6, 10-8
1954 Eastern Grasscourts final: Hoad wins 6-3, 6-4, 6-3
1955 Queens Club final: Rosewall wins 6-2, 6-3 (Hoad's wedding day)
1955 NSW final: Hoad wins 6-2, 6-3, 2-6, 6-1
1955 Australian final: Rosewall wins 9-7, 6-4, 6-4
1956 Victorian final: Rosewall wins 4-6, 4-6, 6-1, 6-4, 6-3
1956 US final: Rosewall wins 4-6, 6-2, 6-3, 6-3
1956 South Australian final: Rosewall wins 6-1, 7-5, 6-1
1956 Wimbledon final: Hoad wins 6-2, 4-6, 7-5, 6-4
1956 Manly Seaside final: Hoad wins 6-2, 6-1
1956 Australian final: Hoad wins 6-4, 3-6, 6-4, 7-5
1957 Forest Hills Pro: Rosewall wins 6-3, 9-7, 4-6, 6-3
1957 Australian tour: Rosewall wins 4 matches to 1
1958 Kooyong Pro: Hoad wins 4-6, 8-6, 6-4
1958 Forest Hills Pro: Rosewall wins 6-2, 9-7
1959 Perth Pro semifinal: Hoad wins (unknown)
1959 NSW 3rd place: Rosewall wins (unknown)
1959 Adelaide final: Hoad wins 5-7, 7-5, 6-4
1959 Forest Hills Pro semifinal: Hoad wins 5-7, 6-4, 7-5, 6-4
1959 Brisbane Pro semifinal: Rosewall wins 8-6, 6-3, 3-6, 4-6, 6-0
1959/60 Kooyong Pro final: Hoad wins 6-3, 10-8, 4-6, 15-13
1962 Kooyong Pro final: Rosewall wins 6-3, 6-8, 6-0, 6-4
1962 Adelaide Pro final: Hoad wins 7-5, 6-8, 6-4
1964 Perth Pro: Rosewall wins 7-5, 6-3
1964 US Pro quarterfinal: Rosewall wins 6-8, 6-3, 10-8
1967 Wimbledon Pro semifinal: Rosewall wins 6-2, 6-2

The final tally Hoad 16 wins, Rosewall 17 wins, Rosewall winning the majority of the matches after Hoad's decline as a player after 1960.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by kiki

So hopefully it will be over soon

kiki, You will have to wait yet quite a bit...

I will contradict Dan as long as he gives strange or wrong arguments.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Geneva on clay? How do we know?
Hoad's record was below average for the 1958 and 1959 European tour, except for Roland Garros which was part of the Ampol series.
The five tournaments of the 1958 Ampol series were the most prestigious of the year.
Hoad played much more tennis than anyone in 1958 and 1959, putting his best efforts into the big money championships.
As I stated earlier, he won about $10 million in today's dollars from about 400 matches between July 1957 and January 1, 1960, by far the most of the pre-open generation of players. His back would not allow a 100% effort in every event.

Dan, I think that Geneva was played on clay because at that time in the summer clay was the dominant surface in Continental Europe.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Sorry.
In acknowledgement of Bobby's concerns, I have compiled a definitive list of Hoad/Rosewall clay matches, giving the unknown surfaces an asterisked list of their own.

Hoad vs. Rosewall on clay in confirmed clay settings:

1) 1952 Australian Hardcourt final: Hoad df. Rosewall 2-6, 6-1, 1-6, 6-2, 11-9
2) 1953 Australian Hardcourt semi-final: Hoad df. Rosewall 6-1, 2-6, 6-1, 6-8, 7-5
3) 1955 New South Wales Hardcourt final: Hoad df. Rosewall 6-3, 6-3
4) 1957 The Hague (red shale) final: Hoad df. Rosewall in five-set marathon
5) 1957 Cairo final: Hoad df. Rosewall in five-set marathon
6) 1958 Roland Garros final: Rosewall df. Hoad 3-6, 6-2, 6-4, 6-0 (Hoad injured during match)
7) 1959 Roland Garros 3rd place: Hoad df. Rosewall 6-3, 4-6, 6-2
1960 Roland Garros final: Rosewall df. Hoad 6-2, 2-6, 6-2, 6-1
9) 1960 Tokyo (first Japanese Professional Championship): Hoad df. Rosewall 6-2, 0-6, 3-6, 6-1, 13-11

In addition, some of the following may have been on clay:

1) 1957 European tour: Hoad wins 6 matches to 3
2) 1958 Perrier: Rosewall wins 4 matches to 1
3) 1959 Rome: Rosewall df. Hoad 5-7, 6-4, 6-1
4) 1960 Geneva: Hoad df. Rosewall 6-4, 6-1
5) 1962 Geneva: Rosewall df. Hoad 6-3, 7-5
6) 1963 Poertschach: Rosewall df. Hoad 6-4, 6-3
7) 1963 Cannes Indoor: Rosewall df. Hoad 7-5, 6-3
1964 Cannes Indoor: Rosewall df. Hoad 14-12, 6-4

Assuming that all of the above asterisked matches were played on clay, the final tally head-to-head lifetime on clay was Hoad 15, Rosewall 14, Rosewall winning all of the matches after Hoad's game declined after 1960.

Dan, I can assure you that Poertschach 1963 was played on clay.

Even if you add the doubtful events, you still don't get the final tally hth lifetime on clay. I have told you already that Rosewall won many matches in 1961/1962 that are undocumented. Source is the Rowley bio of Rosewall.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Dan, I think that Geneva was played on clay because at that time in the summer clay was the dominant surface in Continental Europe.

But Geneva had indoor venues, and they would cost less for the pros to rent than an outdoor clay stadium.
We cannot assume very much; for example, in 1960 the second Melbourne event was actually indoor on carpet, despite the prevalence of grass in Australia.
I have listed Geneva above with an asterisk, but the final tally still shows Hoad ahead of Rosewall lifetime on clay.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Dan, I can assure you that Poertschach 1963 was played on clay.

Even if you add the doubtful events, you still don't get the final tally hth lifetime on clay. I have told you already that Rosewall won many matches in 1961/1962 that are undocumented. Source is the Rowley bio of Rosewall.

Poertschach was definitely on clay

i was wondering, since kiki started that ´greatest rivalry´theme.
Dan, Bobby, are the two of you active tennis players?

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Well, there is another list.
Hoad vs. Rosewall ON GRASS, which I know you have been waiting for.

1953 Eastern Grasscourts semi: Hoad wins 6-4, 6-1, 5-7, 6-4
1953 Victorian final: Hoad wins 9-7, 8-6, 3-6, 6-3
1953 NSW final: Hoad wins 8-6, 4-6, 9-7, 10-8
1953 Queens Club final: Hoad wins 8-6, 10-8
1954 Eastern Grasscourts final: Hoad wins 6-3, 6-4, 6-3
1955 Queens Club final: Rosewall wins 6-2, 6-3 (Hoad's wedding day)
1955 NSW final: Hoad wins 6-2, 6-3, 2-6, 6-1
1955 Australian final: Rosewall wins 9-7, 6-4, 6-4
1956 Victorian final: Rosewall wins 4-6, 4-6, 6-1, 6-4, 6-3
1956 US final: Rosewall wins 4-6, 6-2, 6-3, 6-3
1956 South Australian final: Rosewall wins 6-1, 7-5, 6-1
1956 Wimbledon final: Hoad wins 6-2, 4-6, 7-5, 6-4
1956 Manly Seaside final: Hoad wins 6-2, 6-1
1956 Australian final: Hoad wins 6-4, 3-6, 6-4, 7-5
1957 Forest Hills Pro: Rosewall wins 6-3, 9-7, 4-6, 6-3
1957 Australian tour: Rosewall wins 4 matches to 1
1958 Kooyong Pro: Hoad wins 4-6, 8-6, 6-4
1958 Forest Hills Pro: Rosewall wins 6-2, 9-7
1959 Perth Pro semifinal: Hoad wins (unknown)
1959 NSW 3rd place: Rosewall wins (unknown)
1959 Adelaide final: Hoad wins 5-7, 7-5, 6-4
1959 Forest Hills Pro semifinal: Hoad wins 5-7, 6-4, 7-5, 6-4
1959 Brisbane Pro semifinal: Rosewall wins 8-6, 6-3, 3-6, 4-6, 6-0
1959/60 Kooyong Pro final: Hoad wins 6-3, 10-8, 4-6, 15-13
1962 Kooyong Pro final: Rosewall wins 6-3, 6-8, 6-0, 6-4
1962 Adelaide Pro final: Hoad wins 7-5, 6-8, 6-4
1964 Perth Pro: Rosewall wins 7-5, 6-3
1964 US Pro quarterfinal: Rosewall wins 6-8, 6-3, 10-8
1967 Wimbledon Pro semifinal: Rosewall wins 6-2, 6-2

The final tally Hoad 16 wins, Rosewall 17 wins, Rosewall winning the majority of the matches after Hoad's decline as a player after 1960.

Dan, Thanks for the grass list.

You forgot two Rosewall wins in the 1965 Australian series.

I would not say that Hoad really declined after 1960. Remember his wins against Laver and his great 1966 Wembley match against Rosewall. I just believe that Rosewall improved after 1959 which you deny.