The serve.

kiteboard · 11-23-2012, 10:44 PM

An analysis of pro matches had a direct correlation of second serve defense and second serve return offense: the better a player did defending his own serve and breaking his opponents second serve= the higher they were ranked.

70% of pro lessons are given to people who hire a pro to teach them to serve.

All the top serve volleyers of years past used heavy frames and gut: sampras at 389g, edberg at 400g, Becker at 405g, mac at god knows what.

They needed the mass for serving, not for returning or volleying.

Now the norm is 365g. Delpo, djoker, fed, berdych, tsonga, almagro, etc. near that range.

Is there anything here that teaches us how to create vicious whip lash? How to increase our frame speed?

Can't be done without the coil and the snap speed of our forearm. Leg drive adds 10%.

The timing needed to get the frame moving over 100mph is difficult to learn. That's why so few can hit 130mph.

But if you do learn to, it sets you apart if coupled with accuracy. Not many club players ever hit one that fast, let alone average 120mph.

raonic oh serve

fed oh serve

harrison oh serve

becker oh serve

kiteboard · 11-23-2012, 10:45 PM

sampras motion

sampras serve oh

sampras serve sideways

sampras french open

kiteboard · 11-23-2012, 10:46 PM

sampras serve

ryan harrison against Stakhovsky, aussie open

HOw many of us have the ability to learn it? Not many. Here, it's all talk and no learning.

kiteboard · 11-23-2012, 10:51 PM

Sampras said, "I turn my shoulders, I bend my knees and I put it on the line.", and that's all he thought about. His toss was never off at all. His rhythm either. Takes more than hard work and reps. The coil needed is extreme.

The speed vicious.

Even if you know all that, just try to go and do it.

The odds are high you will fail forever.

That's why pitchers and big servers get paid so much.. They are rare. Sampras contact was often three feet inside the baseline. Just try that once. He and Becker bent their backs way forward to get more into the shot, and a better angle into the court. More pathway to create speed and mass. Their forearms snap over, not the wrist. Even if you work on it for years, you will be lucky to have one unbreakable game in a match. Sampras would hit about 100 serves a day. Lubijcic would hit them for an hour a day. And how many out there hit ten for a practice warm up?

henman shot

AS you can see, every one pictured here uses a platform stance, not a pin point.

charliefedererer · 11-24-2012, 10:07 AM

kiteboard,

For what it's worth, I enjoy your threads.

For those that already get it, your points may seem "obvious".

But I hope at least one player sees this post and the light goes on.

sureshs · 11-24-2012, 10:33 AM

What about Roddick with a PP stance?

kiteboard · 11-24-2012, 10:55 AM

He does have a pp stance, but he's not pictured here. Great coil, and very fast shoulder over shoulder rotation. Extremely fast uncoil. The truth is, the most bang for any buck is the serve, that is, for those who want to play matches, if you develop a deadly serve, you will be able to pull out tight matches not otherwise winnable. When Sampras practiced, he just hit a lot of aces against his sparring partners.

EVery match I ever played was obvious why I won or lost: serving. Either they could return my second or not, either they could break me or not. I always break some. But it was always my serve that determined win/loss. If that's so obvious, then why are not there more interested in that one shot?

These oh shots are particularly deserving of attention. They show just how much the coil depends on turning sideways and bending over so the hip is protruding out, and just how much the arm coils towards the baseline.

Pitchers take arm coil way farther than servers do. They coil everything more, and still throw 100mph with no lever arm. If servers coiled as much, they'd hit 150mph.

Ash_Smith · 11-24-2012, 11:43 AM

^^^arm coil?

boramiNYC · 11-24-2012, 12:41 PM

I probably am not exactly on the same page as kite but his notion of arm coil is accurate and actually very important. basically it's internal shoulder rotation and forearm rotation all together. rotational force is transmitted all the way from ankle, hips, trunk, shoulder and arm and hand.

sureshs · 11-24-2012, 12:45 PM

I watched a video recently by a coach in the UK. He was very pedantic, in the old-fashioned way. One great tip that I have started incorporating is about body rotation. He says the way to make it automatic is this: in the deuce court for a rightie server, stand with your left foot angled at 45 degrees or towards the net post, as usual, but face the target, i.e. the deuce court on the other side. Then the body coil becomes necessary!

After a while, you will coil your body even in the ad court by habit!

Coiling achieved with no effort!

The other great insight he provided was that rocking motion (weight on front, back and front feet) automatically causes knee bend!

These are two of the best serving tips I have ever found.

His third tip was to open up the racket face as it passes behind the back foot. This will cause automatic shoulder rotation. I agree, but I find that it might result in more spin but less pace.

Ash_Smith · 11-24-2012, 01:02 PM

^^^care to post the link?

sureshs · 11-24-2012, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

^^^care to post the link?

It is the "Serving at club level" series by David Kemp. The knee action and waist action videos.

I can easily imagine him teaching Physics or History, all with the same tone and a wry sense of humor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE1lapFiChM

11-23-2012, 10:44 PM	#1
kiteboard Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland Posts: 3,911	The serve. An analysis of pro matches had a direct correlation of second serve defense and second serve return offense: the better a player did defending his own serve and breaking his opponents second serve= the higher they were ranked. 70% of pro lessons are given to people who hire a pro to teach them to serve. All the top serve volleyers of years past used heavy frames and gut: sampras at 389g, edberg at 400g, Becker at 405g, mac at god knows what. They needed the mass for serving, not for returning or volleying. Now the norm is 365g. Delpo, djoker, fed, berdych, tsonga, almagro, etc. near that range. Is there anything here that teaches us how to create vicious whip lash? How to increase our frame speed? Can't be done without the coil and the snap speed of our forearm. Leg drive adds 10%. The timing needed to get the frame moving over 100mph is difficult to learn. That's why so few can hit 130mph. But if you do learn to, it sets you apart if coupled with accuracy. Not many club players ever hit one that fast, let alone average 120mph. raonic oh serve fed oh serve harrison oh serve becker oh serve

11-23-2012, 10:51 PM	#4
kiteboard Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland Posts: 3,911	Sampras said, "I turn my shoulders, I bend my knees and I put it on the line.", and that's all he thought about. His toss was never off at all. His rhythm either. Takes more than hard work and reps. The coil needed is extreme. The speed vicious. Even if you know all that, just try to go and do it. The odds are high you will fail forever. That's why pitchers and big servers get paid so much.. They are rare. Sampras contact was often three feet inside the baseline. Just try that once. He and Becker bent their backs way forward to get more into the shot, and a better angle into the court. More pathway to create speed and mass. Their forearms snap over, not the wrist. Even if you work on it for years, you will be lucky to have one unbreakable game in a match. Sampras would hit about 100 serves a day. Lubijcic would hit them for an hour a day. And how many out there hit ten for a practice warm up? henman shot AS you can see, every one pictured here uses a platform stance, not a pin point. Last edited by kiteboard : 11-23-2012 at 10:59 PM.

11-24-2012, 10:55 AM	#7
kiteboard Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland Posts: 3,911	He does have a pp stance, but he's not pictured here. Great coil, and very fast shoulder over shoulder rotation. Extremely fast uncoil. The truth is, the most bang for any buck is the serve, that is, for those who want to play matches, if you develop a deadly serve, you will be able to pull out tight matches not otherwise winnable. When Sampras practiced, he just hit a lot of aces against his sparring partners. EVery match I ever played was obvious why I won or lost: serving. Either they could return my second or not, either they could break me or not. I always break some. But it was always my serve that determined win/loss. If that's so obvious, then why are not there more interested in that one shot? These oh shots are particularly deserving of attention. They show just how much the coil depends on turning sideways and bending over so the hip is protruding out, and just how much the arm coils towards the baseline. Pitchers take arm coil way farther than servers do. They coil everything more, and still throw 100mph with no lever arm. If servers coiled as much, they'd hit 150mph. Last edited by kiteboard : 11-24-2012 at 11:08 AM.

11-24-2012, 11:43 AM	#8
Ash_Smith Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 2,253	^^^arm coil? __________________ I tweet - @ashtennis guru (no spaces) I Shoot - www.flickr.com/photos/ashtennis guru/ (again no spaces! grrr)

11-24-2012, 01:02 PM	#11
Ash_Smith Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 2,253	^^^care to post the link? __________________ I tweet - @ashtennis guru (no spaces) I Shoot - www.flickr.com/photos/ashtennis guru/ (again no spaces! grrr)