Some stats for 1975 Australian Open final

[krosero]

Originally Posted by WCT

All that exists of that challenge match is the 4th set, 10 games. All that I've seen, anyway. I did stats for it and they don't match up with Vines recollection. Granted, it's only one set. Perhaps the others played out the way Vines described.

Connors had 11 free points to Newcombe's 7. Connors served and volleyed 10 times in the 4th set, and he was winning his service games EASILY. Newcombe never got past 30. When Connors does stay back there isn't much of a rally. As pretty much happened the times he stays back at the Australian, it winds up Newcombe chipping to Connors forehand and Connors approaching after a couple shots. One thing. at the Australian, he lobbed Connors a lot. Not so much in Las Vegas. Again, though, it was only a set and Connors was winning his service games, the only time he would be at net, so easily. There weren't that many points for there to be a lot of lobs.

This was Segura's Connors. Knowing that, based on how he played in the other 74-75 Connors matches I have, I tend to think Connors mixed it up the entire match. That he was never consistently serving and staying back which is how I read Vines' take on the match.

Segura, in his book with Gladys Heldman, expresses some similar sentiments about serving and volleying on both serves simply because that was the way it was supposed to be done. Segura was talking more about taller players with less agility. The Stan Smiths and Clark Graebners. That they would be better off not consistently serving and volleying on second serves against elite returners. Better to work their way in on subsequent shots.

At the end of that book Segura breaks down, in depth, 4 of Connors' main matches in 1975. The 2 challenge matches and The US and Wimbledon finals.
My recollection was that he thought Connors served as well as he ever had in the Newcombe match. Just using the 4th set, I wouldn't argue. And he served big. Relatively speaking, I mean. Not big by Roscoe Tanner standards. Big, I think, by later Jimmy Connors standards.

Thanks for this WCT. The fourth set is also all I've seen. I don't recall, how was Newcombe doing on second serve? Is that the part that didn't match up with Vines?

Newcombe earned 11 break points in the first two sets, very different from the fourth set where he never got past 30 in Connors' service games.

[WCT]

Sorry, krosero, I didn't do % stats for points won on serve. Surprised to hear about all those early break points, though. I reread Segura's take on the match.
He did say that it was the best he had ever seen Connors serve. Makes no mention of tons of break points. Says that outside of Newcombe's one break to win the second set that Connors had very little difficulty holding.

He did mention that Connors used the kick serve to Newcombe's forehand very well, and that he would stay back on that serve so as not to give Newk a target. He also mentions how he thinks smaller players, like Connors, should not serve and volley all the time. That they should mix it up. But that is consistent with his theme on Connors whenever his name is mentioned in the book. His unpredictability as in his ability to play from all parts of the court. He can stay back or come in. The one thing he lacks are the touch shots like drop shots.

In that 4th set, the game he is broken was really the only time Newk was in trouble. There was a questionable call that gave Connors 15-40, IIRC. Surprised CBS never showed a replay.

CBS got caught with their live mics a little too close. During one of the changeovers Connors is looking for a piece of a gum from his mother. Nobody has any, and Connors cursed on air. The dangers of live tv.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by WCT

He did say that it was the best he had ever seen Connors serve. Makes no mention of tons of break points. Says that outside of Newcombe's one break to win the second set that Connors had very little difficulty holding.

In those first two sets Connors faced 11 break points, but 6 of those were in one game (at 3-1 in the first set). So maybe he did have a number of easy holds in that time period. No question he held easily in the fourth set.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by WCT

Sorry, krosero, I didn't do % stats for points won on serve. Surprised to hear about all those early break points, though. I reread Segura's take on the match.
He did say that it was the best he had ever seen Connors serve. Makes no mention of tons of break points. Says that outside of Newcombe's one break to win the second set that Connors had very little difficulty holding.

He did mention that Connors used the kick serve to Newcombe's forehand very well, and that he would stay back on that serve so as not to give Newk a target. He also mentions how he thinks smaller players, like Connors, should not serve and volley all the time. That they should mix it up. But that is consistent with his theme on Connors whenever his name is mentioned in the book. His unpredictability as in his ability to play from all parts of the court. He can stay back or come in. The one thing he lacks are the touch shots like drop shots.

In that 4th set, the game he is broken was really the only time Newk was in trouble. There was a questionable call that gave Connors 15-40, IIRC. Surprised CBS never showed a replay.

CBS got caught with their live mics a little too close. During one of the changeovers Connors is looking for a piece of a gum from his mother. Nobody has any, and Connors cursed on air. The dangers of live tv.

he did try the drop shot on occasion, but they rarely worked and he was smart enough to use them when he was trying to reserve energy and end a loosing game quickly.

[WCT]

Originally Posted by krosero

In those first two sets Connors faced 11 break points, but 6 of those were in one game (at 3-1 in the first set). So maybe he did have a number of easy holds in that time period. No question he held easily in the fourth set.

Still, seems like a lot when we're talking about his best serving ever because he got broken once in addition to the other break points. Overall, obviously, it was not that unusual for Connors to face break points. Thing is, Segura specified how good he served that day. The best he had ever seen. I sure wish some more of that match showed up. Don't know the original source. Looks like a network feed with the timer like the Laver match.

To be clear, Segura's comments are from 1976, at the latest. Connors did develop more touch shots as his career progressed, but there weren't many in the 74-75 matches I have.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by WCT

Still, seems like a lot when we're talking about his best serving ever because he got broken once in addition to the other break points. Overall, obviously, it was not that unusual for Connors to face break points. Thing is, Segura specified how good he served that day. The best he had ever seen. I sure wish some more of that match showed up. Don't know the original source. Looks like a network feed with the timer like the Laver match.

To be clear, Segura's comments are from 1976, at the latest. Connors did develop more touch shots as his career progressed, but there weren't many in the 74-75 matches I have.

Connors had a pretty good drop shot, not at Orantes,Panatta,Santana ,Nastase or Gene Mayer´s level, but a reliable one and a pretty good % of points won.

Did anybody recall Borg using a drop shot? I mean, from the baseline, not his pattented dead volleys...

[WCT]

Later on, he developed an okay drop shot. Not at the time of Segura's comments, though. If you look at the 81 Wimbledon semi, he uses it against Borg a few times. Not a ton. 5-6 times? Ashe was sort of working with Connors at the time. He was real big on the idea of needing to draw Borg in. Talked about in OFF THE COURT a bit. I mean Connors specifically, that Borg was just too good at the baseline.

Thing is, Borg was so fast that it better be a good drop shot. Also, Ashe was probably thinking that even if he was a very good volleyer by that point, he still wasn't as good as he was from the baseline.

Good point about Borg and drop shots. Offhand, I don't recall seeing him try any.

[Frankc]

Just wanted to renew this wonderful post on a spectacular and special match. It might be possible that a few recent viewers may have missed this post.

Just finished another viewing of the match and the layers upon layers of talent, atmosphere, and story lines have been well mentioned.

The crowd reaction and appreciation for the match is as genuine as I have witnessed. You can tell that they "knew" how remarkable this moment was. What an arena, what a tradition, what players... The endless standing ovation, on and on and on, is matched by only one other situation in my viewing. Connors again - when he retires against Chang at RG, the crowd is standing and cheering long after he leaves the court...

As to Connors and his sportsmanship, he was on good behavior and he smiled and joked quite a bit, but I did sense that he knew Newk's reputation for tactical smarts and getting into a competitor's head. Newk just stared at Connors as Connors threw that point and the crowd cheered. Oh, to know what both of these champions were really thinking... More than a few times, Connors motioned the racket butt up and single digit to the crowd - the cheering continued...

Thanks for this great, great post...

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Frankc

Just wanted to renew this wonderful post on a spectacular and special match. It might be possible that a few recent viewers may have missed this post.

Just finished another viewing of the match and the layers upon layers of talent, atmosphere, and story lines have been well mentioned.

I love this match,, I think in many ways it's a richer story than the Ashe-Connors final.

[kiki]

Newcombe changed tactics and seldom did use S&V continuously.

After the match, Connors, the bad guy said: " Newcombe has pride in his game and above it, he has pride in himsmelf"

[heathcliff]

i´d like to know how often newk attacked the net and how long the final lasted. does anybody know?

[krosero]

Originally Posted by heathcliff

i´d like to know how often newk attacked the net and how long the final lasted. does anybody know?

I didn't count the net approaches, but Newk came in behind all his serves. He served on 135 points, including his aces and double-faults.

Newk also came in a lot in Jimmy's service games, but again, I didn't do a count.

Don't know the running time.

[heathcliff]

Originally Posted by krosero

I didn't count the net approaches, but Newk came in behind all his serves. He served on 135 points, including his aces and double-faults.

Newk also came in a lot in Jimmy's service games, but again, I didn't do a count.

Don't know the running time.

thanks anyway

[heathcliff]

Originally Posted by krosero

I didn't count the net approaches, but Newk came in behind all his serves. He served on 135 points, including his aces and double-faults.

Newk also came in a lot in Jimmy's service games, but again, I didn't do a count.

Don't know the running time.

btw, are aces usually included on those net-statistics? i know that service-winners do.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by heathcliff

btw, are aces usually included on those net-statistics? i know that service-winners do.

Net stats would not usually include the aces, and offhand I don't recall any that included them.

[Nadal_Power]

Can someone tell me what happen in first point of 8th game in 4th set, I miss it on my video

I know Newk won it but need information was first or second serve, and how he won the point, also how many strokes were in rally

Thanks

[Xavier G]

Newk was a great grass-court player and what's more, he had the smarts. Newk was 30 and an experienced big-match player, still at or near his peak. He had been around the game a long time. Like Jimbo said, Newcombe also had a lot of pride in himself, and in front of a home audience too.
John had played himself in at the Masters just previously as well, knew the courts and Connors was cocky back then,22. We know what Jimmy was like back then. This match was a bit like Ali v Foreman where Ali out-thought the powerful young Foreman. Experience. Newcombe had the big game to give Jimbo a grass court lesson. Connors got some smarts himself later on.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Nadal_Power

Can someone tell me what happen in first point of 8th game in 4th set, I miss it on my video

I know Newk won it but need information was first or second serve, and how he won the point, also how many strokes were in rally

Thanks

My disc comes into it mid-point; Connors is making a BHV, with Newk on the baseline. Newk then makes a BH lob over his head; Connors runs back and throws up a FH sitter that Newk puts away with a FHV.

It looks to me like Connors, when he makes his BHV, has just come in behind his serve. So in my own stats I gave him a first serve.

If that's right it's 6 strokes in all.

[Nadal_Power]

Originally Posted by krosero

My disc comes into it mid-point; Connors is making a BHV, with Newk on the baseline. Newk then makes a BH lob over his head; Connors runs back and throws up a FH sitter that Newk puts away with a FHV.

It looks to me like Connors, when he makes his BHV, has just come in behind his serve. So in my own stats I gave him a first serve.

If that's right it's 6 strokes in all.

Thanks man

So, first serve, probably return from backhand wing, 6 shots, Newk's winner with FHV on the net

Long rallyes were almost all the same , with Jimbo running back and forward and Newk sending great deep lobs from baseline

I will post my stats when I make them

[kiki]

Newcombe had great stamina and strength, since he had beaten Roche in a very tough 5 sets match just some hours before playing Connors
I cannot recall whom Jimmy beat in the last four...maybe Alexander?